360 all show no go???

[Kipper]

Hi Members
The heading will appear to be somewhat controversial on this site but I guess i am still a little stunned - pissed after my very short track day in a 360 Spider.

I have been a lurker on this site for some time approximately 2 years which was when I purchased my wife a cute 2005 360 Spider ticks all the boxes, Red, Creme interior, F1 Blah Blah Blah. I have enjoyed reading about the creative work and knowledge on these cars and the passion of some of the members

I have decided to post this for two reasons, the first being to express how disappointing my experience was and also hopefully receive some feed back as to whether i have created my own problems and therefore issues that can be resolved.

Today I decided to attend a track day at our local track Phillip Island a fast flowing track with a couple of corners requiring a sturdy foot on the brakes. I decided to take my Lambo/Murci and also my wifes 360 for a day out, Prior to the day I decided to install Tyres all around (Nitto NT05) check brake pads all fluids, (But did not change brake fluid)

Well as it turned out the day was wet, showers all day so the track was wet and dry all day. As we left home for the track I pointed out to my friend whom was driving the 360 to watch out for the tyres as they are new and may need to be scrubbed in a little, we drove for 2 hours before we arrived at the track.

We get to the track and first session wet surface mate comes in white faced and said this thing is F#### dangerous their is no way I can keep this thing on the track, so we parked the 360 until the track dried figuring that we need to get the tyres scrubbed and up to temp. set pressure at 30PSI

Next session 360 was very tail happy and difficult to drive but guess what 2 laps in and no brakes, discs blue and no pedal!!!!

Anyway we left the 360 in the pits thrashed the lambo and had a drive of some Nasty GTR's
what an amazing car.

On the way home roads were dry and damp but the rear end of the 360 was loose, in fact i dont think I will let my wife drive this in the wet, I still need her to make the bed and cook for a little longer

Prior to this day I was exited about giving the 360 a run on the track as my few road experiences were that the 360 was nimble, stuck and light to drive.

I am really interested in some feed back as I will either need to make this better or pass it onto a Tea sipping poser?

Some feed back on the following will be genuinely appreciated:

1) Are the standard brakes normally this pathetic?
2) Are the Nitto NT05 tyres OK or reasonable to use (the car currently behaves like the
tyres are Bald (especially the rear)
3) I purchased NT05 because this was all I could get at short notice
4) Brake pads I believe are Standard with 50% left and approximately 10K miles
5) I dont know when the Brake fluid was last changed or what is in it, should have
changed it, I know but i have never experienced such brake fade in such a short time
before, how bad does fluid have to be to be so bad?
6) What do you think I need to do to make this 360 what i am told it should be
7) How much different mechanically is a Challange Stradale to the 360 spider in the above
areas, I am guessing Ferrari expects Challange cars to do more than 2 laps

Please dont hurl abuse at my thread as I am hoping deep down that an F car cannot be as bad as this??

Kipper

[RobD]

I'm sure more knowledgeable guys will chime in, but I'll just say that the car must be in top condition if you expect top track performance. The car's alignment should have been checked, the brake fluid should have been changed and the new tires scrubbed-in a bit more. The pads you assume are standard, which they probably are, but they could be aftermarket low-dust pads which are not meant for track use. Do you notice very little brake dust on the wheels?

If properly set-up, the 360 is more than capable of running some spirited laps around the track without loosing its brakes or flying off of the track.

[Trent]

Originally Posted by Kipper

2) Are the Nitto NT05 tyres OK or reasonable to use (the car currently behaves like the
tyres are Bald (especially the rear)
3) I purchased NT05 because this was all I could get at short notice

The NT05s are "supposedly" good on damp pavement, but are poor on wet pavement especially when wet == some standing water. This is based on reviews. I also just looked at the tread pattern and depth and it seems obvious that this tire would perform poorly with any standing water. There are few grooves in the center, looks like just enough to get DOT approval, and the edge grooves that are designed to remove water appear shallow and small in area. *I am not a tire designer

On the wet, it is very hard to get tires up to temperature. Running lower tire pressure is one way. Changing to wet tires is a better way, but a track day with mixed wet and dry is just hard. Races are won and lost because of selecting the right or wrong tire on days like this.

The Merc and GTR, your two other data points are both AWD. AWD varients are much easier to drive in the wet, and I can see going from a GTR to the 360, that the 360 would feel like a hand full. Even in the dry with the same tires the AWD cars will feel easier to drive and more stable, the RWD will be harder (or more fun) to drive fast.

Jeremy Clarkson did a video review (not a top gear episode) on a track of a Gallardo SL and a Scud. If you watch the video you can see the scud all over the place and the gallardo planted and solid. All dry.
-Here it is-

You Tube

You Tube

Originally Posted by Kipper

4) Brake pads I believe are Standard with 50% left and approximately 10K miles
5) I dont know when the Brake fluid was last changed or what is in it, should have
changed it, I know but i have never experienced such brake fade in such a short time
before, how bad does fluid have to be to be so bad?

I think you should blame the brake failure on the guy you look at in the mirror. Track days are serious. Fresh fluid and pads are a must. Old fluid will have absorbed water (hygroscopic), and when you bake the fluid the water boils and changes to gas, pedal hits floor, car hits barrier, owner blames Ferrari.

[Rob in Potomac]

Originally Posted by Kipper

Hi Members
Some feed back on the following will be genuinely appreciated:

1) Are the standard brakes normally this pathetic?
2) Are the Nitto NT05 tyres OK or reasonable to use (the car currently behaves like the
tyres are Bald (especially the rear)
3) I purchased NT05 because this was all I could get at short notice
4) Brake pads I believe are Standard with 50% left and approximately 10K miles
5) I dont know when the Brake fluid was last changed or what is in it, should have
changed it, I know but i have never experienced such brake fade in such a short time
before, how bad does fluid have to be to be so bad?
6) What do you think I need to do to make this 360 what i am told it should be
7) How much different mechanically is a Challange Stradale to the 360 spider in the above
areas, I am guessing Ferrari expects Challange cars to do more than 2 laps

Kipper

You raise some good issues. First of all, I have driven my 2004 360 Spider on East Coast tracks for the past 5 years and have generally held my own with most other cars. Of course, the 430 is somewhat faster and the GT-3 is also. The Gallardo driver is aided by the all wheel drive, which sometimes compensates for early or late entries.

But, brakes have been a problem. I tried cross drilled, slotted and solid rotors up front, all of which cracked - probably due to my driving style which was heavy braking at the end of the straights. I have now switched to Brembo big brakes on the fronts and am trying to change my driving style to more gradual and consistent input before corners - but the culprit appears to be not enough vents for cooling up front. As far as pads and fluids, I use Motul racing fluid and I believe black or yellow Pagids - can't remember which ones I am currently using. Also, perhaps most importantly, Competizione in Maryland, set up my camber, toe-in, etc. and typically inspects my car after every track weekend. As to tires, I use Toyo 888's which typically last one to two weekends. When the track is very wet, I just drive in one gear higher, reduce my speeds and practice driving "perfect" lines - or don't go out.

So, my overall answer is the 360 Spider is a terrific car for the street and the track, but does need some minor mods. However, I have decided to use my Spider on the street and have just purchased a GT-3 for the track.

Good luck and enjoy,

Rob

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by Trent

The NT05s are "supposedly" good on damp pavement, but are poor on wet pavement especially when wet == some standing water. This is based on reviews. I also just looked at the tread pattern and depth and it seems obvious that this tire would perform poorly with any standing water. There are few grooves in the center, looks like just enough to get DOT approval, and the edge grooves that are designed to remove water appear shallow and small in area. *I am not a tire designer

On the wet, it is very hard to get tires up to temperature. Running lower tire pressure is one way. Changing to wet tires is a better way, but a track day with mixed wet and dry is just hard. Races are won and lost because of selecting the right or wrong tire on days like this.

The Merc and GTR, your two other data points are both AWD. AWD varients are much easier to drive in the wet, and I can see going from a GTR to the 360, that the 360 would feel like a hand full. Even in the dry with the same tires the AWD cars will feel easier to drive and more stable, the RWD will be harder (or more fun) to drive fast.

Jeremy Clarkson did a video review (not a top gear episode) on a track of a Gallardo SL and a Scud. If you watch the video you can see the scud all over the place and the gallardo planted and solid. All dry.
-Here it is-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld4eoCBcK5I



I think you should blame the brake failure on the guy you look at in the mirror. Track days are serious. Fresh fluid and pads are a must. Old fluid will have absorbed water (hygroscopic), and when you bake the fluid the water boils and changes to gas, pedal hits floor, car hits barrier, owner blames Ferrari.

I accept your point and dont hide the fact that I did not change the fluid, and by all accounts may be a major contributor however I struggle to accept that 50% pads cant stop at least 4 times in 2 minutes on a fast track?? I have never experienced such bad brakes on any car even a Pantera i had many years ago could stop many times on its prehistoric discs

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by Kipper

I accept your point and dont hide the fact that I did not change the fluid, and by all accounts may be a major contributor however I struggle to accept that 50% pads cant stop at least 4 times in 2 minutes on a fast track?? I have never experienced such bad brakes on any car even a Pantera i had many years ago could stop many times on its prehistoric discs

If you boil the fluid, it doesn't matter what pads, rotors, calipers etc. you have, you'll have no brakes. Did the pedal go soft or just require too much effort to stop the car?

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by Rob in Potomac

You raise some good issues. First of all, I have driven my 2004 360 Spider on East Coast tracks for the past 5 years and have generally held my own with most other cars. Of course, the 430 is somewhat faster and the GT-3 is also. The Gallardo driver is aided by the all wheel drive, which sometimes compensates for early or late entries.

But, brakes have been a problem. I tried cross drilled, slotted and solid rotors up front, all of which cracked - probably due to my driving style which was heavy braking at the end of the straights. I have now switched to Brembo big brakes on the fronts and am trying to change my driving style to more gradual and consistent input before corners - but the culprit appears to be not enough vents for cooling up front. As far as pads and fluids, I use Motul racing fluid and I believe black or yellow Pagids - can't remember which ones I am currently using. Also, perhaps most importantly, Competizione in Maryland, set up my camber, toe-in, etc. and typically inspects my car after every track weekend. As to tires, I use Toyo 888's which typically last one to two weekends. When the track is very wet, I just drive in one gear higher, reduce my speeds and practice driving "perfect" lines - or don't go out.

So, my overall answer is the 360 Spider is a terrific car for the street and the track, but does need some minor mods. However, I have decided to use my Spider on the street and have just purchased a GT-3 for the track.

Good luck and enjoy,

Rob

Hi Rob
Thanks for your feed back, hopefully more members will chime in and I can make a few decisions on what to do, the reason I say this is that their is no way I would bother going back to the track with a brake pad and fluid change and expect track performance, and by the way I dont expect to compete with GTR,s GT3,s or anything else for that matter but is would be nice to be able to put in some good spirited laps and enjoy or more importantly allow my wife to run around the track at her moderate pace.

Feed back on brake options will be appreciated, also I suspect that the tyres are not a good choice, I have driven enough performance cars to understand that this behavior on a damp to drying surface is not normal

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by bobzdar

If you boil the fluid, it doesn't matter what pads, rotors, calipers etc. you have, you'll have no brakes. Did the pedal go soft or just require too much effort to stop the car?

The brakes had huge fade early after a couple of moderate stops then on the second lap the pedal went soft which most probably was fluid failure/boiling

I have never experienced such quick and acute degradation of brakes on any of my cars ever before like this, its interesting to understand that poor quality or contaminated fluid can react so quickly??

[Rob Lay]

Originally Posted by Kipper

1) Are the standard brakes normally this pathetic?

you may have something wrong. when was your last flush, did you bleed before the event, and did you have new pads? that's what you can do for the most stock performance. beyond that you can upgrade brake lines, better fluid, and get more aggressive pads.

Originally Posted by Kipper

2) Are the Nitto NT05 tyres OK or reasonable to use (the car currently behaves like the tyres are Bald (especially the rear)

I don't know about that tire, the 200 rating is a good compromise for the street, but isn't a great aggressive street and track tire. tires are the last place you want to save money. My Gransport is similar on weight and power of the 360, but suspension much softer. Here was my experience with a cheap tire (Hankook Ventus).

avoid Hankook Ventus tires!

Originally Posted by Kipper

6) What do you think I need to do to make this 360 what i am told it should be

Nothing except just do all the stuff you can to be in top stock condition, which yours isn't. The 360 is aged, awesome for what it was, you can't compare it to current cars though. It was great for its time. It also wasn't a track car, you can go faster in a Spec Miata if you want a good track car. The 360 was last of the old power curve Ferraris, high on HP, but lacking in the seat of the pants torque department. many use to higher torque cars think that's a lack of power, the car is still fast on a track and in its power band. with the 430 and like my GranSport they got the torque and a more throw you in back of seat feel.

[Mo T]

Adjusting camber/toe and putting the right tires for track use will change your experience dramatically.

A couple of guys here can help you setup the car properly for that loose back end. It's common for Ferrari's to be way off proper alignment out of the factory.

[anxpert]

The added weight of the Spider will impact on brake fade / wear significantly, and definitely feels loose under throttle on / off transition in the wet. I had similar experiences upon purchasing my 360 Spider.

From my conversion experience to CS specs on my car , I can attest to the dramatic difference the Challenge Stradale components have made to my 360 Spider beyond aesthetics, specifically the BIG brakes and lighter suspension.

Obviously not a comparison in purchase / sale value, but performance potential.

While I've driven a number of performance vehicles, the raw feel of a CS spec 360 Spider is a rewarding experience.

The 430 series is faster, but the 360 is at the edge of still feeling like a traditional sports car with a bit of penash, and at a price point that allows some of us " gear heads " to personalize.

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by Mo T

Adjusting camber/toe and putting the right tires for track use will change your experience dramatically.

A couple of guys here can help you setup the car properly for that loose back end. It's common for Ferrari's to be way off proper alignment out of the factory.

I would be appreciative of some guidance on the best alignment specs,

Kipper

[greyboxer]

Originally Posted by anxpert

The added weight of the Spider will impact on brake fade / wear significantly,

4 % or less than the weight of a passenger will make affect the brakes 'significantly' ?

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by anxpert

The added weight of the Spider will impact on brake fade / wear significantly, and definitely feels loose under throttle on / off transition in the wet. I had similar experiences upon purchasing my 360 Spider.

From my conversion experience to CS specs on my car , I can attest to the dramatic difference the Challenge Stradale components have made to my 360 Spider beyond aesthetics, specifically the BIG brakes and lighter suspension.

Obviously not a comparison in purchase / sale value, but performance potential.

While I've driven a number of performance vehicles, the raw feel of a CS spec 360 Spider is a rewarding experience.

The 430 series is faster, but the 360 is at the edge of still feeling like a traditional sports car with a bit of penash, and at a price point that allows some of us " gear heads " to personalize.

When updating to bigger brakes can you tell me what is necessary? such as Rotors calipers larger wheels ect

Thanks
Kipper

[F430GT]

Kipper, this is the typical case of lack of track preparation. So many people take their cars to a track day with no preparation at all. Typical results are brakes fading, horrible handling, and big accidents in the worse case. So, here are my recommendations:

1) Flush the brake fluid in there with Endless RF650. This is a racing brake fluid (used by Brawn-Mercedes F1 in Schumi and Rosberg's cars). I just started using it this year, after 8 years using Castrol SRF. It is far better than SRF. SRF if better than Motul RBF660 and RBF600 (which I have used as well), SRF is better than PFC race 665 fluid as well. I have tested other brake fluids and always SRF stayed on top, until I tested Endless RF650 this year.

2) Replace your brake pads with track pads. Performance Friction PFC-08 compound has been successfully tested by plenty of track drivers, consistent, long lasting. The PFC code is 592 for the 360 Spider, but double check with your PFC distributor. PFC-06 has more torque but less durability. PFC-08 are long lasting pads. I have been using Pagid RS15, RS19 and RS29, but I admit that PFC are superior. However, I'm about to start using EndLess pads and will report on them, based on Pro Racing teams feedback, they are superior to Pagid Racing.

3) Set your alignment right. 0 toe front, 0.25 degrees toe-in rear per corner (0.50 degrees total). Add negative camber, at least -2.5 front and -2.0 rear. These settings are fine for street use, and will make the car work fine at the track. If you want a less nervous steering wheel, add a little toe-in (no more than 0.10 degrees total), if you want a live steering wheel, add a little toe-out (no more than 0.10 degrees total).

4) Nitto NT-05 are crappy tires. If you want a street tire that performs well at the track, there are plenty of options. I always recommend having a dedicated set of wheels/tires for track use, and another set of wheels/tires for street use. For street use, the Michelin Pilot Super Sports is great, and so is the RE11 from Bridgestone, Hankook RS3, Yoko ADV-08, Toyo R1R. For track tires, there are the ones you can drive to the track, and the ones that need the car to be transported on a trailer.

5) The 360 Spider has enough brakes for track use, when using proper pads and brake fluid. However, if you're going to use track tires, the brakes won't be able to handle the extra grip, so the F430 Challenge cooling kit at all corners will fix the problem.

355, 360, F430 and 458 have great dynamics and very good performance, with proper track preparation they can perform quite well. Don't expect the 360 Spider to keep up with well prepped GTR, Vettes, Vipers, GT3, but it won't be that far off either.

[tr328]

Definitely sounds like you have a brake issue.

360 is not the fastest car on the track or street, but with some upgrades it can be more enjoyable. There are always plenty of other faster cars out there.

[Need4Spd]

Originally Posted by F430GT

Kipper, this is the typical case of lack of track preparation. So many people take their cars to a track day with no preparation at all. Typical results are brakes fading, horrible handling, and big accidents in the worse case. So, here are my recommendations:

1) Flush the brake fluid in there with Endless RF650. This is a racing brake fluid (used by Brawn-Mercedes F1 in Schumi and Rosberg's cars). I just started using it this year, after 8 years using Castrol SRF. It is far better than SRF. SRF if better than Motul RBF660 and RBF600 (which I have used as well), SRF is better than PFC race 665 fluid as well. I have tested other brake fluids and always SRF stayed on top, until I tested Endless RF650 this year.

2) Replace your brake pads with track pads. Performance Friction PFC-08 compound has been successfully tested by plenty of track drivers, consistent, long lasting. The PFC code is 592 for the 360 Spider, but double check with your PFC distributor. PFC-06 has more torque but less durability. PFC-08 are long lasting pads. I have been using Pagid RS15, RS19 and RS29, but I admit that PFC are superior. However, I'm about to start using EndLess pads and will report on them, based on Pro Racing teams feedback, they are superior to Pagid Racing.

3) Set your alignment right. 0 toe front, 0.25 degrees toe-in rear per corner (0.50 degrees total). Add negative camber, at least -2.5 front and -2.0 rear. These settings are fine for street use, and will make the car work fine at the track. If you want a less nervous steering wheel, add a little toe-in (no more than 0.10 degrees total), if you want a live steering wheel, add a little toe-out (no more than 0.10 degrees total).

4) Nitto NT-05 are crappy tires. If you want a street tire that performs well at the track, there are plenty of options. I always recommend having a dedicated set of wheels/tires for track use, and another set of wheels/tires for street use. For street use, the Michelin Pilot Super Sports is great, and so is the RE11 from Bridgestone, Hankook RS3, Yoko ADV-08, Toyo R1R. For track tires, there are the ones you can drive to the track, and the ones that need the car to be transported on a trailer.

5) The 360 Spider has enough brakes for track use, when using proper pads and brake fluid. However, if you're going to use track tires, the brakes won't be able to handle the extra grip, so the F430 Challenge cooling kit at all corners will fix the problem.

355, 360, F430 and 458 have great dynamics and very good performance, with proper track preparation they can perform quite well. Don't expect the 360 Spider to keep up with well prepped GTR, Vettes, Vipers, GT3, but it won't be that far off either.

+1.

Question for those who have used Motul. Is it ok to use it year round? While I flush before going to track I don't always flush after.

[KJM3SMG]

should be titled "360 all show, no stop"

Good info on the thread tho.. I was thinking of picking up a 360 for the track but these brake problems are enlightening.. I'll stick to my 911

[gmast827]

Originally Posted by F430GT

Kipper, this is the typical case of lack of track preparation. So many people take their cars to a track day with no preparation at all. Typical results are brakes fading, horrible handling, and big accidents in the worse case. So, here are my recommendations:

1) Flush the brake fluid in there with Endless RF650. This is a racing brake fluid (used by Brawn-Mercedes F1 in Schumi and Rosberg's cars). I just started using it this year, after 8 years using Castrol SRF. It is far better than SRF. SRF if better than Motul RBF660 and RBF600 (which I have used as well), SRF is better than PFC race 665 fluid as well. I have tested other brake fluids and always SRF stayed on top, until I tested Endless RF650 this year.

2) Replace your brake pads with track pads. Performance Friction PFC-08 compound has been successfully tested by plenty of track drivers, consistent, long lasting. The PFC code is 592 for the 360 Spider, but double check with your PFC distributor. PFC-06 has more torque but less durability. PFC-08 are long lasting pads. I have been using Pagid RS15, RS19 and RS29, but I admit that PFC are superior. However, I'm about to start using EndLess pads and will report on them, based on Pro Racing teams feedback, they are superior to Pagid Racing.

3) Set your alignment right. 0 toe front, 0.25 degrees toe-in rear per corner (0.50 degrees total). Add negative camber, at least -2.5 front and -2.0 rear. These settings are fine for street use, and will make the car work fine at the track. If you want a less nervous steering wheel, add a little toe-in (no more than 0.10 degrees total), if you want a live steering wheel, add a little toe-out (no more than 0.10 degrees total).

4) Nitto NT-05 are crappy tires. If you want a street tire that performs well at the track, there are plenty of options. I always recommend having a dedicated set of wheels/tires for track use, and another set of wheels/tires for street use. For street use, the Michelin Pilot Super Sports is great, and so is the RE11 from Bridgestone, Hankook RS3, Yoko ADV-08, Toyo R1R. For track tires, there are the ones you can drive to the track, and the ones that need the car to be transported on a trailer.

5) The 360 Spider has enough brakes for track use, when using proper pads and brake fluid. However, if you're going to use track tires, the brakes won't be able to handle the extra grip, so the F430 Challenge cooling kit at all corners will fix the problem.

355, 360, F430 and 458 have great dynamics and very good performance, with proper track preparation they can perform quite well. Don't expect the 360 Spider to keep up with well prepped GTR, Vettes, Vipers, GT3, but it won't be that far off either.

Another amazing post. I think you can be accredited with 80% (maybe more) of the new track knowledge I have learned since joining Fchat.

[Mikkofin]

First of all, 360 is a 13 year old platform.
It should only be compared to the vehicles of the same era

The Brembo brakes on it are of adequate size, with the upgrades / maintenance mentioned and when used with street tires.
F430GT told you what to do to make them perform as they should perform. He is always spot on.

Better / new brake fluid, new more agressive pads and possibly new rotors truly make a huge difference.
The original pads (if worn and glazed especially as mine were from DD:ing) will be shot after one lap or even less. A
Also, pitted / cracked, worn rotors are one issue to be addressed.