360 all show no go???

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by 360trev

For geo advice, study this post. Download the excel and digest it!

360Stradale 6 speed manual conversion

Got It
Thanks Trev
Kipper

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by F430GT

Kipper, this is the typical case of lack of track preparation. So many people take their cars to a track day with no preparation at all. Typical results are brakes fading, horrible handling, and big accidents in the worse case. So, here are my recommendations:

1) Flush the brake fluid in there with Endless RF650. This is a racing brake fluid (used by Brawn-Mercedes F1 in Schumi and Rosberg's cars). I just started using it this year, after 8 years using Castrol SRF. It is far better than SRF. SRF if better than Motul RBF660 and RBF600 (which I have used as well), SRF is better than PFC race 665 fluid as well. I have tested other brake fluids and always SRF stayed on top, until I tested Endless RF650 this year.

2) Replace your brake pads with track pads. Performance Friction PFC-08 compound has been successfully tested by plenty of track drivers, consistent, long lasting. The PFC code is 592 for the 360 Spider, but double check with your PFC distributor. PFC-06 has more torque but less durability. PFC-08 are long lasting pads. I have been using Pagid RS15, RS19 and RS29, but I admit that PFC are superior. However, I'm about to start using EndLess pads and will report on them, based on Pro Racing teams feedback, they are superior to Pagid Racing.

3) Set your alignment right. 0 toe front, 0.25 degrees toe-in rear per corner (0.50 degrees total). Add negative camber, at least -2.5 front and -2.0 rear. These settings are fine for street use, and will make the car work fine at the track. If you want a less nervous steering wheel, add a little toe-in (no more than 0.10 degrees total), if you want a live steering wheel, add a little toe-out (no more than 0.10 degrees total).

4) Nitto NT-05 are crappy tires. If you want a street tire that performs well at the track, there are plenty of options. I always recommend having a dedicated set of wheels/tires for track use, and another set of wheels/tires for street use. For street use, the Michelin Pilot Super Sports is great, and so is the RE11 from Bridgestone, Hankook RS3, Yoko ADV-08, Toyo R1R. For track tires, there are the ones you can drive to the track, and the ones that need the car to be transported on a trailer.

5) The 360 Spider has enough brakes for track use, when using proper pads and brake fluid. However, if you're going to use track tires, the brakes won't be able to handle the extra grip, so the F430 Challenge cooling kit at all corners will fix the problem.

355, 360, F430 and 458 have great dynamics and very good performance, with proper track preparation they can perform quite well. Don't expect the 360 Spider to keep up with well prepped GTR, Vettes, Vipers, GT3, but it won't be that far off either.

F430GT I have found both Brake Fluid and PFC Pads on the web here in AUS I will follow up the products tomorrow, as I understand your post I should purchase at least PFC code 592 , is this the code for the PFC-06 pad?

Kipper

[Need4Spd]

I'll only add that you need to run new tires at least 500 miles before they develop optimum grip. Mold release compound on the tires makes them quite slippery until it's worn off. Track day with new tires is a recipe for slipping and sliding.

[FerrariDublin]

Originally Posted by Kipper

Sorry guys i pushed the wrong keys here i go again

Kipper

Kipper, you're doing the right thing and for what it's worth I don't think it will cost you a fraction of the cost you fear.

Seriously, if you only had fresh brake fluid your experience on the day would probably have been totally different.

Don't beat yourself up either, what you did, in terms of initial prep, for the first outing was perhaps more than many would have done and certainly more than I did. You replaced the tyres with what certainly look like they ought to be pretty good (for dry use anyway), it's just unfortunate that you were a bit rushed for choice.

I look forward to hearing how it goes next time out!

Best of luck.

[raptorduck]

Originally Posted by radix

IMO your comments seem to be more about tires than about the car.

Many people vastly underestimate the role tires play in vehicle performance - is it possible in this case ?

Yes, others have said this to me. Could be this. But they are newer than those on my R8, which need to be replaced this year, and yet the R8 is far grippier. Of course it is an AWD car.

[arizonaitalian]

Originally Posted by Kipper

7) How much different mechanically is a Challange Stradale to the 360 spider in the above areas, I am guessing Ferrari expects Challange cars to do more than 2 laps

Lots.

I had mine on Firebird Main track today and it was amazing fun and held up perfectly. Hit 130MPH at end of straight, brake hard, clip several apexes, brake, accelerate like life depends upon it, hit 130MPH. Repeat.

Actually repeated about ~10 hot laps in each 15 minute session and did four sessions. Car worked perfectly and impressively. CS is a pretty different animal than stock, but even still, yours didn't sound quite right...oh, mine is bone stock except for Bridgestone RE-11 in place of Pirelli Corsa tires (I didn't fiddle with the brake pads or fluid).

[F430GT]

Originally Posted by Kipper

F430GT I have found both Brake Fluid and PFC Pads on the web here in AUS I will follow up the products tomorrow, as I understand your post I should purchase at least PFC code 592 , is this the code for the PFC-06 pad?

Kipper

Kipper, 592 is the shape of the pad for the 360 Modena front and rear, but double check with the Performance Friction Distributor as sometimes manufacturers change the codes.

PFC-06 is the pad compound. I would recommend PFC-08 as they are an endurance compound and they last longer, PFC-06 has more friction (torque or mu) but less life. PFC-01 is pretty good too, but it is an old compound, so PFC-06 improves on everything the PFC-01 did.

[Need4Spd]

360 has identical pads and rotors front and rear. There are separate part nos by some mfrs for front pads because they have slots for the wear sensors (there isn't a sensor on the other end of the car). Otherwise they are the same.

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by Need4Spd

I'll only add that you need to run new tires at least 500 miles before they develop optimum grip. Mold release compound on the tires makes them quite slippery until it's worn off. Track day with new tires is a recipe for slipping and sliding.

This makes a lot of sense and I understand this problem I thought a few laps on the track would sort this out but did not get the chance, I am interested to know however whether the Nitto NT05 tyres are really such a bad choice for the 360 or should I leave them on for a while and get some street value out of them?.

Quite honestly if they are crap, and my experience is not just break in and car settings, then they will go straight to the bin, (please note that this 360 is a weekend girls car, I just want it to be good and best fit for use, saving $$ in these areas in not my concern.

An interesting point to note is that I put a set of Pirelli tyres on my Lambo and for the first 500 miles+ the traction control had to be turned off due to tyre slippage especially front to rear. It was not until after tyres had some considerable miles on them that the car was drivable with traction control on (the traction control is pretty poor on the earlier Murcis but still proves and supports your point!

Thanks for your feed back

Kipper

[Kipper]

Originally Posted by arizonaitalian

Lots.

I had mine on Firebird Main track today and it was amazing fun and held up perfectly. Hit 130MPH at end of straight, brake hard, clip several apexes, brake, accelerate like life depends upon it, hit 130MPH. Repeat.

Actually repeated about ~10 hot laps in each 15 minute session and did four sessions. Car worked perfectly and impressively. CS is a pretty different animal than stock, but even still, yours didn't sound quite right...oh, mine is bone stock except for Bridgestone RE-11 in place of Pirelli Corsa tires (I didn't fiddle with the brake pads or fluid).

Thanks for your feed back this is refreshing to hear.

I will post a couple more questions in the next hour regarding tyres and brakes so that I can make a few decisions and move forward.

Kipper

[Kipper]

Thanks all for your contribution to this thread I am now quite motivated to see where this ends up.

I would like to clarify a couple of points before i pull out the wallet

(note as I have said before this is a street car which I think should be able to circle around the track sensibly as the public would expect such a car to).

Cost and wear rate not being a consideration out of these two (Pilot sport) + (RE11) which tyre will give the best Street performance but could be taken to a fun track day? Our street use is nearly always dry weather unless caught out which is probably like most of us.

Should i just upgrade the brakes slightly to improve them from standard rather than spend money on pads, caliper refresh and (possibly a couple of rotors??) I have not inspected them yet.

I do not know what parts are available of the shelf for improvement, and I dont think it makes sense or I will need to spend huge $$ on complete brake system changes from master cylinder to hand brake.

For example can you buy better or larger rotors that will still use the existing calipers or maybe the fronts need total upgrade only and the rear improving??

I know I can talk to the brake suppliers and they will all show me what they think i need and prep up for the 24 hour at lemans but I would like to hear the anwsers from members that have practical experience for my real requirements.

I understand GT430 has some strong knowledge on the track also and look forward to his feed back for my specific needs

Thanks to all

Kipper

[tbakowsky]

Kipper..Don't waste your money. The 360 is a big heavy sports car. It handles very well on the street. But when you talk to people that REALLY know how to drive a car on the track, its the bottom of the barrel. I have seen 360's go around a track many times and its not a pretty sight at all. The body roll is out of this world for a so called sports car.

The 360 is a wondeful street car, and will do eveything you need or want it to in that enviroment. But on the tack is a pig with lipstick.

Keep it as a road car, but find somthing else to go fast in at the track..a Miata maybe??

[F430GT]

Kipper, the Nitto NT-05 is not a great tire. Get rid of them. The Nitto NT-01 is a fast track tires but cannot be used on the streets.

You cannot go wrong with RE11 or Michelin PSS. I would recommend MPSS because of their massive grip in wet conditions. I personally prefer the RE11 because it likes very high pressures and the sidewalls feel stiffer. Both tires are phenomenal. You can also consider the Hankook RS3 (not that good in the rain), Dunlop Direzza Z1 StarSpec and Yoko ADV08. All of these tires are available in 18" wheels.

You need to change the brake pads, PFC-08 can be used on street and track. They perform consistently, all my friends are running them, but PFC won't make a set for the Scuderia, otherwise I would be running them.

SRF brake fluid is very good. Endless RF650 is better, but you cannot go wrong with SRF.

Alignment is key.

The body roll (if it bothers you), you can replace the springs with stiffer units. I like to use a short main spring and a long helper spring to reduce unsprung weight.

The only relative expensive part is the tires, and tires are cheap, $1,200 US. Brake pads from PFC are even cheaper. Brake fluid is super cheap. I do my on alignments, but alignment is cheap as well. I cannot see how you could spend more than $2,500 for all the track preparation mentioned above (tires, pads, fluid, alignment).

[360trev]

Originally Posted by tbakowsky

Kipper..Don't waste your money. The 360 is a big heavy sports car. It handles very well on the street. But when you talk to people that REALLY know how to drive a car on the track, its the bottom of the barrel. I have seen 360's go around a track many times and its not a pretty sight at all. The body roll is out of this world for a so called sports car.

The 360 is a wondeful street car, and will do eveything you need or want it to in that enviroment. But on the tack is a pig with lipstick.

Keep it as a road car, but find somthing else to go fast in at the track..a Miata maybe??

Totally disagree. The 360 can be brilliant on the track (as my trips to the Nurburgring prove!). It uses essentially the same lightweight Alcoa Aluminium chassis as the CS and Scuderia! The only thing wrong is its too softly setup from factory with comical ride height. It is a light mid engined, rwd car and has good center of gravity but the setup is specifically for Paris Hilton and not the the track.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, on the 360 Spider, (once maintenance is solved) just fit the 16M springs [or stiffer again] and rear rollbar, dial in track biased geo/ride height settings and fit good tires. Job done. Handles brilliantly.

[tbakowsky]

Originally Posted by 360trev

Totally disagree. The 360 can be brilliant on the track (as my trips to the Nurburgring prove!). It uses essentially the same lightweight Alcoa Aluminium chassis as the CS and Scuderia! The only thing wrong is its too softly setup from factory with comical ride height. It is a light mid engined, rwd car and has good center of gravity but the setup is specifically for Paris Hilton and not the the track.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, on the 360 Spider, (once maintenance is solved) just fit the 16M springs [or stiffer again] and rear rollbar, dial in track biased geo/ride height settings and fit good tires. Job done. Handles brilliantly.

Agree..But you can make any car handle with modifications. Heck I could get a chev Caprice Wagon with wood paneling go around a track half decent with heavy mods to the suspension and such.

I think what Kipper is getting at is the fact he was expecting half decent track performance out of the box. Which in all honesty the car should provide going by all the hype about Ferrari's racing history you can drive on the street, and the F1 tech that is supposedly installed in all their street cars.

I find the 360 quite dangerous when pushed hard in stock form. Kipper is right in all he says. But with mods..yes you can turn it into a great driving machine for the track. Like anything else.

I remember the video of a female racing instructor who beat everyone on the track with their hopped up track cars, in a delivery van.

[360trev]

Originally Posted by tbakowsky

Agree..But you can make any car handle with modifications. Heck I could get a chev Caprice Wagon with wood paneling go around a track half decent with heavy mods to the suspension and such.

I think what Kipper is getting at is the fact he was expecting half decent track performance out of the box. Which in all honesty the car should provide going by all the hype about Ferrari's racing history you can drive on the street, and the F1 tech that is supposedly installed in all their street cars.

I find the 360 quite dangerous when pushed hard in stock form. Kipper is right in all he says. But with mods..yes you can turn it into a great driving machine for the track. Like anything else.

I remember the video of a female racing instructor who beat everyone on the track with their hopped up track cars, in a delivery van.

I would hardly call springs, pads, fluid, tires as "heavy" suspension mods but I appreciate the point your making. IMHO its just sensible fine tuning/prep to the original chassis to do track work better. Most cars are not specifically made for the job of track duties require re-focusing to be any good in a track setting. I would certainly not blame Ferrari engineers either, since they had to decide on the compromise that most buyers would be happy with, the softer ride, compromise "under-steering" geometry and spring rates are there to remind uneducated drivers how hard they are pushing the car. In fact most Ferrari's when handed over to customers don't even have good geo settings and that along with good tires alone can make a huge difference!

Ferrari ofcourse do sell track biased models specifically for the job, just like Porsche sell GT3's for track day duties, they are of course exactly why the Stradale, Scuderia, 16M and Challenge cars exist, then much more seriously the ALMS, GT3 and N-GT cars. Indeed Mr. Glickenhaus latest creation is running the same chassis, abet in a heavily modified form.

The light track prep discussed is actually only following the recipe that Ferrari have always used for the HGTE handling upgrade packs. In reality most people actually don't want improved handling at the compromise of any firmer ride, hence the efforts to make adjustable and active damping systems better. First it was the turn of the older generation electronic damping [sport/race mode] which your right, aren't perfect, but later attempts have improved the "regular" road cars ability to do both road and track well. With the adoption of magnetorheological dampers starting with the Cali and then used much more successfully on the 458 they have hit a pretty decent blend of compromise of road manners vs track performance. Still however for ultimate track use, you really want fixed mono rate dampers and well matched springs, rollbars and low cg, low weight. In other words you want a car specifically for the job.

[arizonaitalian]

Originally Posted by F430GT

PFC-08 can be used on street and track.

SRF brake fluid is very good. Endless RF650 is better, but you cannot go wrong with SRF.

Rad - I've done some searching this morning but haven't found the answer to this question, help please!

You mention that PFC-08 can be used "full time" and simply run on the street and will work on the track.

Question: Does that apply to CS? (with stock CCM rotors?)

Thanks!

[Innovativethinker]

Would it be inappropriate to say women don't belong on a racetrack except to hold up the lap board?

Kind of like a woman's locker room at a proper golf club.














(please note this is just manly humor)

[F430GT]

Originally Posted by arizonaitalian

Rad - I've done some searching this morning but haven't found the answer to this question, help please!

You mention that PFC-08 can be used "full time" and simply run on the street and will work on the track.

Question: Does that apply to CS? (with stock CCM rotors?)

Thanks!

Nope. PFC-08 and any other PFC compound is not available for the CS, F430 CCB, Scuderia/16M, F430 and 458 Challenge. I tried multiple sources for several months and we could not work something out.

RS19 and RS29 can be used full-time on streets and track, but they are sensitive to heat cycles, after 24 HC they lose their stopping power despite of how much pad material is left. This is the part I don't like on the Pagid RS19 and RS29 compounds, but they are long lasting. To put one heat cycle on a set of pads they need to get to the range of operating temperatures, then cool down. Easy driving on the street will not add heat cycles, but fast driving on the streets can be as demanding as track driving, and add heat cycles to these pads.

[FerrariDublin]

Originally Posted by Kipper

..........

Should i just upgrade the brakes slightly to improve them from standard rather than spend money on pads, caliper refresh and (possibly a couple of rotors??) I have not inspected them yet.

I do not know what parts are available of the shelf for improvement, and I dont think it makes sense or I will need to spend huge $$ on complete brake system changes from master cylinder to hand brake.

For example can you buy better or larger rotors that will still use the existing calipers or maybe the fronts need total upgrade only and the rear improving??


Kipper

Kipper, you certainly can upgrade brakes to a Brembo big-brake kit - I think it might run something in the order of US$4,000 - here's the first thing that popped up on a search .......... http://www.autoanything.com/brakes/7....aspx?kc=ffsku

However, given your mainly street use application with a few track days thrown in I'd recommend you stick with the standard setup. You can replace the discs (if worn and need replacement) with original Brembo replacements at about Stg£100 per corner. Replacement is quick and easy, search the Tech Q&A section and you'll find a thread or two with pics and how-to advice. Suggest google for your most local supplier if you want to replace.

With my standard Brembo discs replaced, the Carbotech pads and two-year-old SRF my limiting factor is by far and away my MPSS tyres. (Oh! .... and me! ) Stickier tyres would load my brakes and suspension to a greater degree and once you start chasing the dragon's tail it can all get a bit obsessive and expensive and before you know it you've a stripped-out track car which can no longer be used on the road!