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#22
04-26-2012, 02:10 PM
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First of all, my 360 spider is aboslute rubbish in the wet, even mountain dew damp wet. It turns into a sled and is useless in the wet. Did I mention that it absoutley sucks in the wet?
In the dry, it does just fine and is a blast to drive. It is very grippy, but easy to get to spin out in the lower gears. As for the brakes, they are not as good as those on my R8, but they engage just fine and hold just and fade is predictable. Not sure if they are pre-loaded, but seems they might be or they are very god. My R8's are pre-loaded and are an amazing feat of engineering. But the 360 brakes are better than my Aston's or Bentley's (which are massive and work great, but NOT pre-loaded and more mushy). My 2 cent. 
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#23
04-26-2012, 02:48 PM
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Many people vastly underestimate the role tires play in vehicle performance - is it possible in this case ?
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#24
04-26-2012, 02:58 PM
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1.- old tires (tires have an age limit and heat cycles limit, generally anything with 5 years or more should be in a garbage bin). 2.- incorrect alignment 3.- Worn out Limited Slip Differential 4.- All of the above Tires are the biggest performance improvement on any car. Adding power, reducing weight, upgrading the suspension, and other modifications cannot get close to what a good set of tires does to a car. At a recent track day, my Bridgestone RE-11 were almost 9 seconds slower per lap compared to the slicks I ran the same day. Essentially, a 360 Modena on race slicks would produce faster lap times compared to a Scuderia on the stock Pirelli Corsa Tires.
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www.youtube.com/user/GT3Rad
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#25
04-26-2012, 03:24 PM
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#26
04-26-2012, 04:56 PM
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Brakes were the first and biggest problem I encountered once the car was taken to track. Good quality brake fluid is the first thing that must be put right. I use SRF because I can't be bothered to change it so regularly and it has a wet boiling point approx 100F higher than most other good fluids. Next I changed the discs as they were all pretty much worn with grooves and close to limits. I tried OEM and then EBC Yellowstuff pads. The OEM overheated and went off quickly. The Yellowstuff were better. Both were "grabby" and ABS would intervene before any significant retardation could be achieved. On advice from Fatbillybob I next tried Carbotech pads. I used XP8s - there are more agressive options available but I wanted a street/track compromise. The difference was startling. The pads grip the discs without causing lock. They are far superior to the other two I had tried but I will advise that they do make a bit of noise when used with light pressure on the road (like pulling up to stop lights). Your tyres have already been declared as poor for purpose. On the advice of F430GT I use Michelin Pilot Super Sports (MPSS) 265/40/18 rear and 225/45/18 front. If you can get 235/40/18 front it would be a better size. I'm presuming you are still on OEM wheel sizes. These tyres are pretty much the best you can get for the 360 if you want to be able to track in wet and dry conditions. They are significantly better than the older PS2 for both wet and dry conditions. Pressure is important. These are not track tyres, they have compliant side walls and you need to run more than standard pressure to prevent the tyres from folding due to the cornering forces. The alignment specifications F430GT has provided are exactly those I run - reason being they are the settings he generously coached me towards via multiple PM messages of help and advice. In standard setup the car will tend to understeer initially and when pushed further this was then followed by snap oversteer. The settings GT has provided have completely banished understeer from my car. Oversteer is far more progressive and controllable. Turn-in is sharper and the car follows a line with far greater precision. With these settings I can drive 150~200 miles on a tight, twisty track in a single day - wet or dry. The car is fast, predicable and does not destroy it's tyres or brakes. The only changes to take it out of daily use to track use (if you can live with a little brake squeal) is tyre pressure. These settings/changes cost next to nothing over and above alternative tyres/fluids/pads that one might otherwise use. They have transformed my car and made it safer to drive on the road and extremely capable on track. Hope some of this is useful to you and thanks again FBB and F430GT for your excellent advice in the past.
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#27
04-26-2012, 05:11 PM
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Seven year old brake fluid WILL boil and very quickly on a track day. There is a reason FCA requires proof of a recent flush if you want to put your car on a track at an FCA event.
Dave
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#28
04-26-2012, 05:52 PM
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I was running a NASA event at Sebring (Time Trials), lap times per session are available at mylaps.com on the AMB website. 03/31 and 04/01 event. Pirelli DH slicks (this is the hardest compound they make) at all corners. Still the g-forces cannot match the grip I get from Hoosier A6, but the A6 overheats after 1 lap on warm weather.
__________________
www.youtube.com/user/GT3Rad
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#29
04-26-2012, 07:22 PM
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#30
04-26-2012, 08:20 PM
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The Pirelli DH slicks are available from the Ferrari Challenge cars, they fit the stock wheels. They have more grip than R6, and similar grip to A6 (just a tad less). Last time I ran R6, I was in my Cayman at Homestead, my lap times were 1 second slower than same track on a little wider A6, 1:41 vs. 1:42 (bone stock Cayman except a front GT3 sway bar, race pads, race brake fluid, track alignment and track tires). Z1 are fine, at VIR you should see a 6 seconds improvement on the Pirelli DH over the Z1 Star Spec on a F430, 360, Scuderia, etc. I haven't been to VIR, but I have studied plenty of data from multiple drivers and cars at VIR. Part of the almost 9 seconds difference I saw at Sebring has to do with my RE-11 being aged (near heat cycled out), a fresh set of RE11 should be at least 3 secs faster at Sebring, based on a previous event I ran on the same RE11 15 months ago with faster lap times, and less driving experience at Sebring.
__________________
www.youtube.com/user/GT3Rad
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#31
04-26-2012, 11:18 PM
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#32
04-27-2012, 02:22 AM
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I find the performance of the brakes somewhat equal between these two, just that the 360 needs more pedal pressure in comparison.
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#33
04-27-2012, 06:25 AM
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#34
04-27-2012, 06:43 AM
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The 360 can be driven extrememly quickily if it is in the right condition (brakes definatley are pathetic unless cleanly flushed and enhanced fluid used - i prefer synthetic - dot 5) and in the hands of a smooth driver. Many can only drive a car fast when they can rely upon huge amounts of horse power - and usualy just in a stright line and a lack of smoothness and flow causes upsets during cornering - which affects top end speed after such corners etc etc. If a 360 isn;t being driven fast through corners - the problem is usually the driver, but not always - as these are old cars - so they can;t be compared to recent developments. The 360, through excellant chasis geometry and 'reasonable' suspension (considering the technology is about a decade old), allows it to be driven very quicikly - considering it's only 400 Hp.
Agree 100% about poor standard brakes - I was very dissapointed when I first tracked mine - lasted about 2 laps! All fixed now though and much improved lap times.The 360 is ideally suited to Phillip Island - so if it's not going well it's only the driver or the car set up/condition. Try a set of Falkens - only $400 (ozzie) each and you can afford to put new ones on each time - not bad performance - considering the cheaper price (1/2 bridgstone) Hope you have better luck next time.
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#35
04-27-2012, 06:46 AM
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I feel your pain. I always liked the 360. I went out and got one to see what the hype was all about. I come from the Mitsu crowd. I am more of a high power drag guy but have had some track prepped Evo’s. I feel like they would run circles around the 360. Brakes my good, a stock Evo again for the win. The GTR I will admit it feels like driving a video game but again stock will out performance a 360 with mods. For me its all about power. I thought there was some thing wrong with my car. I had to dyno it to confirm power. The curve is awful. It has almost no power under 6k witch would be ok if its rev limit was 14k. It feels like a pissed of Acura integra. It is the saddest v-8 ever build.
I am building a turbo kit for the 360 to see if that satisfies my needs. The car is easy on the eyes I will say that. If the the turbos, performance brake pads, and fluids don’t make a huge difference I am selling this car asap. Its seems most of your money is spent on looks and the name. No offence to the Ferrari lovers. I am looking at it from a performance stand point.
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#36
04-27-2012, 07:13 AM
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There is a lot of very good advice on this forum, particularly from experts such as F430GT.
If your seriously expecting to just take a 10 year old car to a track and expect it to just miraculously 'work brilliantly' your in for a surprise if you don't first address maintenance. The biggest issue now facing the 360 (and all other cars of this vintage) is age has lead to severe deterioration (even with low miles) of all the old rubber bushes in the suspension. This leads to mushy feelings and inconsistent handling. Many people have a rose tinted view of how good condition their car really is based on the shiny paint and FSH. However... the lack of track biased maintenance means older cars can feel and drive very tired/poor in comparison to other cars. Most of the maintenance in a so called 'full service history' does not address proper handling, simply because most people don't seem to care or be willing to pay for it. However if you want great performance on your road car you need to be prepared to learn more about the subject and then maintain your car accordingly. I.e. you can make your car actually drive like its supposed to. On the road, doing 1,000 'soft miles' per year you don't really notice that your bushes are worn, your tires have gone off, your brake fluid is past its sell by date and the alignment is way off. Why? Its simply because most owners just poodle along at (often sedately) at road legal speed limits, occasionally winding up the speed - which is radically different to driving on a track. On the track the 'putting it back to spec' needs to be looked at first and you will need to budget in several thousand budget to make your car work like the designers originally intended. Once that's up to spec you can then look at mods [above and beyond the usual geo/tires such as uprated springs, wider rims, roll bars, drop links, etc.] You cannot expect a 10 year old Ferrari [even with FSH] to handle like new, until you put the car back to specs for 3 main area; namely, wheels/tires, brakes and steering/suspension. At the very minimum the condition of the list below needs assessing and worn parts replaced. Bear in mind rubber bushes deteriorate with age so even after just 3 years they ideally should be swapped. 1. Wheels & Tires -------------------------------------------------------------- - worn tires [are the tires appropriate for fast road/track?] - bent, kerbed, out of true, wheels - unbalanced wheels 2. Brakes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - old worn brake discs - old worn brake pads - old soft/bulging brake lines - worn, scratched caliper pistons [corroded and sticking] - damaged, leaking seals [seeping or leaking] - worn, master cylinder [braking assistance] - used, old brake fluid - corroded abs terminals [is your abs working intermittently?] 3. Steering & Suspension ------------------------------------------------------- - worn deteriorated, all 16 rubber upper and lower wishbone bushes - worn deteriorated, upper and lower ball-joints [very common] - worn deteriorated, front and rear track rod-ends [very common] - worn deteriorated, pair of rubber engine mounts - worn deteriorated, rubber gearbox mount - worn deteriorated, front and rear anti-roll bar bushes - worn deteriorated, play in the steering rack - worn deteriorated, play in the steering rack ends - worn deteriorated, play in drop links - worn deteriorated, tired x4 suspension struts - worn deteriorated, saggy, tired, x4 suspension springs - worn deteriorated, wheel bearings, [dragging/friction/noise] - appropriate geometry settings for track/fast road -(*also not related to these area's - slack in the gearbox diff as mentioned by F430GT) I have gone through the entire list mentioned above in my car and all I can say is it takes time, commitment and deep pockets to maintain your car in perfect track day ready specification. Experimenting with tires, geometry is something that also takes time to do, F430GT has a lot of great advice here.
__________________
Strive for perfection in everything we do. Take the best that exists and make it better. When it does not exist, design it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough. Henry Royce Last edited by 360trev; 04-27-2012 at 07:21 AM.
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#37
04-27-2012, 07:32 AM
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If you want a ballet dancer, super knife edge sharp handling, get a 360/430 and address the maintenance and do a few subtle upgrades to bring it to Scuderia/F430 Challenge spec. Its been well discussed on here but the 360 [us spec] cars are well down on power due to all the emissions stuff they are hamstrung with, sports [decatted] headers, free flowing sports cats, exhaust and remap make a considerable difference and retain sharp throttle response. While turbo's yield big bhp/torque they dumb down the response [plus can add 100kg weight penalty] and make handling harder to manage [pro's/con's]. Do you really need more than 400 or 500hp [360/430] in a sub 1200kg car? Probably not... the limiting factor for fast track times are traction and handling, not outright grunt. Most of the time your TC [or actual traction] doesn't let you put down much more than this anyway without 4wd.
__________________
Strive for perfection in everything we do. Take the best that exists and make it better. When it does not exist, design it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough. Henry Royce
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#38
04-27-2012, 07:38 AM
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Thanks all for your replys and posts on this subject.
F430GT thanks for the detailed direction Ferrari Dublin you are probably where I need and want to be 360trev you make a valid point but please read my summation After reading the posts i will immediately do the following and see how we end up 1)
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#39
04-27-2012, 07:45 AM
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360Stradale 6 speed manual conversion
__________________
Strive for perfection in everything we do. Take the best that exists and make it better. When it does not exist, design it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough. Henry Royce
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#40
04-27-2012, 08:34 AM
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Sorry guys i pushed the wrong keys here i go again
Thanks all for your replys and posts on this subject. F430GT thanks for the detailed direction Ferrari Dublin you are probably where I need and want to be 360trev you make a valid point but please read my summation After reading the posts i will immediately do the following and see how we end up 1) Check all suspension points for excessive wear, replace if necessary 2) Check service / grind rotors if still in good condition, check calipers and install pads as recommended if the rotors are throw aways then i will go to larger units (i will come back to this thread if this is required 3) Replace brake fluid with that recommended by F430GT or at least SRF which I have used before 4) Replace tyres with Pilot sports 5) Align all corners to suggested specs 6) I would also like to look further into the air ducts some additional assistance here will be appreciated Please understand I took the 360 to the track for my wife to have a scoot around and better understand her ride, As F430GT stated their was a lack of track preparation other than putting a new set of rubber on before the day out. The mindset here was hey! this will be a fun little ride for my wife, she will be nowhere near the limits, better put some tyres on as the old one were quite hard. On the day it was raining and pretty miserable so she decided to stay home and we took the 360 to the track to give it a little squirt. As I said earlier this car was a dangerous mess and I am glad she did not end up at the track on the day.... You may wonder why would some one just take their car to the track without major preparation well i would like to tell you why, my simple mindset at the time. The 360 is a 2005 now 6.5 years old pristine condition (supercar????) so I will make sure we have the best rubber I could buy for street track use, i assumed this way we would have maximum performance for the street (who cares if the tyres wear out in 5000 miles dont drive it that much anyway. Tyres are cheap Dont plan to set track records or race anyone in particular so 50%+ pads should be fine for a few laps and brake fluid (should have been taken more seriously) even though is is changed every 2 years at service When I say to you that this 360 was a mess i mean it i could have driven a 20 year old Toyota Corrola around the track faster and safer in the wet. My wife drives a E350 Merc as a daily driver it now has 220K Kilometers on the clock and it would have driven circles around the 360 with 10% pads left. So i guess why would i not expect her 360 of the same age regularly serviced with 10K on the clock do at least do a few laps??? As I write this I am starting to get angry at the thought that I am going to contemplate spending 10-20K for modifications on the 360 just so that I am happy it will be safe on the road let alone the track. For curiosity reasons even though i probably will not keep this car for too long now I will go over every detail within reason as listed above just to satisfy myself that the 360 will be much better. I will come back to the forum and report my experience However I do feel a little better after all your comments. I wish to clarify that when i chose the Nitto NT05 I was told that they would be a great Street / basic Track tyre, could not find Pirellis, Pilot sports or RE11 at short notice they all had to be shipped in. ( Given the circumstances I would have been better with the original tyres left on??) F430GT Can you please advise on which pad I should use for the Street and maybe a basic track day and where I can buy them from I would also like to try the Endless RF 650 Fluid, I can get SRF ok over here in AUS Thanks again all Kipper
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