Do You Really Like It?

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by Nosevi

No will take your word for it mate. I know depowering a rack can be done but some have said that's all you need to do - clearly it isn't, you need to fit a manual rack. I'm guessing the manual rack setup Daniel is offering is more reasonable that the Ferrari specialist who was talking a Ferrari rack, I'm guessing from a CH but not sure.

I've got no issue with people liking the feel of the 355 steering, I just don't very much. Like I said, each to their own. I like the fact that my car (348 TS) feels very direct and raw and whatever anyone says about it, the steering feel is great. That said, last Saturday drove for about 7 1/2 hours in her straight. Could have lived with the 355's more gentle feel after the first 4, I'll tell you!

I don't get what you mean, you can just depower the power rack - you have to remove the piston and possibly remove some of the valving depending on the rack to do it properly, but that should do it. If you didn't want to mess with opening up the rack, all the manual steering stuff is available.

The challenge cars had power steering as well but a tighter ratio I believe.

If you want all new parts, here's the manual rack at Ricambi:

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_...&V=diag&I=1386

You'd also need the lower steering shaft from here:

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_...&V=diag&I=1387

Total would be $2600 for LHD, a couple hundred more for RHD looks like. You could just have the power lower steering column lengthened to match the manual steerign column for about $80 at a driveshaft shop if you didn't want to shell out the $1200 for a new one.

Or you could convert the factory power rack yourself for free.

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Bob, sorry, just saw your edit. So the parts from Daniel aren't a new rack just kind of bits for the 355 de-powered one?

See my post above, whole new rack and lower steering column.

[Nosevi]

Bob, you're right I think that rack would give perfect feel, ballance, feedback - the works. It would transform the car entirely IMHO......


......It's a 348 rack

[TheRossatron]

Originally Posted by J. Salmon

I agree here. A lot of modern cars have heavier steering, but still no more feel. In other words, they don't move in your hand in response to imperfections in the pavement or changes of traction. Most modern sports cars have no more feel than the 355.

Something like a 308/328, a real race car without power steering, or a modern Lotus will demonstrate feel. The lotus steering is most incredible that I have ever felt, perhaps more feel than my formula ford.

I don't think any road car will ever come close the steering feel of the Lotus Elise, they are really are great! Still miss mine.

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by TheRossatron

I don't think any road car will ever come close the steering feel of the Lotus Elise, they are really are great! Still miss mine.

Got a mate who has an Elise, and it is very, very good. Ever driven a 348? Just ask because both of us think it's every bit as good as the Elise. When Evo drove a 308, 348, 355, 360, 430, 458 back to back this is how they described the steering in the 348....

"But now I'm excited because it's instantly obvious this car has some of the best steering, possibly the best, that I have ever sat behind."

"But the reassuring thing is that the 458's astounding pace and wizardry don't diminish the other cars here. There are similarities and differences from first to last but each has its own distinctive personality and you could find multiple perfectly rational and perfectly irrational reasons for being excited by any one of them. For example, my highlight was probably the 348's steering, and that's not something I'd expected at the beginning of the day."

The reason I ask is because so many people don't realise what a great little car the 348 is and while I think the 355 improves on most things on the 348, the steering isn't necessarily one of them.

[fatbillybob]

If the rack is a generic powered rack like in the 550 you can change the feel to whatever you want. Our group of skunkworks guys has made switchable ECU's for the racks that work off the sport switch for the shocks. It is so awesome. You 355 guys might be able to do something similar. me persoally I like my power rack in the 550 with no ecu and the FHP ecu as the most over assited one for me. Others like the original over assited ecu and the FHP perfromance ecu combo on their sport switches. But 355 guys are lucky they could put in a 348 manual rack and save 20lbs of junk and complexity.

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Bob, you're right I think that rack would give perfect feel, ballance, feedback - the works. It would transform the car entirely IMHO......


......It's a 348 rack

My only point was that it's perfectly possible and reasonably priced enough (or free if you can spin a wrench) to put manual steering in a 355 to where it's just not a valid argument for or against it. If you want the higher effort and feedback of the manual steering but don't want to get your hands dirty, it's 3-4k to buy it new and have the parts installed. Putting power steering in a 348, on the other hand, would be a *****. So would adding 50hp. Or a 6th gear. Or an adjustable suspension.

The argument for a 348 is the styling (if that's your preference) and the price. It's very easy to get rid of the limited 'driver aids' on the 355 if you want the more raw experience. Unplug shock actuators, depower the rack and bam: raw, unaided 348 feel with 355 power and sound. It'd be foolish to do, imo, but perfectly possible and you could get it done on a Saturday.

[Mitch Alsup]

Couple of points:

A) If you go back to a manual rack, you should reset the caster to 5 degrees (from 7 degrees).

B) Is there any reason you could not slow down the F355 rack by lowering the pressure of the PS pump?

C) Is there a reason one could not just remove the PS pump and just wire the PS fluid to both sides of the PS rack in the F355?

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by bobzdar

My only point was that it's perfectly possible and reasonably priced enough (or free if you can spin a wrench) to put manual steering in a 355 to where it's just not a valid argument for or against it. If you want the higher effort and feedback of the manual steering but don't want to get your hands dirty, it's 3-4k to buy it new and have the parts installed. Putting power steering in a 348, on the other hand, would be a *****. So would adding 50hp. Or a 6th gear. Or an adjustable suspension.

The argument for a 348 is the styling (if that's your preference) and the price. It's very easy to get rid of the limited 'driver aids' on the 355 if you want the more raw experience. Unplug shock actuators, depower the rack and bam: raw, unaided 348 feel with 355 power and sound. It'd be foolish to do, imo, but perfectly possible and you could get it done on a Saturday.

Fair enough bob. You know I don't totally agree, companies offer to put power steering in a 348 for far less than that for one thing though not sure how good it'd be to be fair, and some don't want adjustable suspension (we really don't), or a 6th gear (my car hits 80mph in 2nd, why in the blazes would I want a 6th ?!?). I like a more old fashioned drive, you don't, but let's agree to differ shall we? I'm not alone, over on *********** there's an interesting thread from someone who clearly feels the same way.
http://www.***********.com/forums/pr...ught-f355.html
We are allowed to hold these views, even if it doesn't talley with what people who want a more modern car think.

I actually really like the 355, though it may seem like I don't. Yes I do jump to the defence of the 348 a little easily, and that's more often than not (for some strange reason I still can't fathom) against the views held by some 355 owners. That is because so much tripe has been said about the 348 in print and even on this forum that the ballance could do with being readdressed and in my opinion, it slowly is being. Over here in the UK we keep getting article after article saying that, shoch horror, the 348 is actually a really good car and great fun to drive. The shock horror is due to the fact that the authors had been told for years that it wasn't but when they actually drove it they found what a load of rubbish had been written about the car in the past.

There's room in the Ferrari's history for both the 355 AND 348 to be great cars, regardless of what LdM may hold or have said. Let's all just accept the differences between the cars, some are good, some I'd change (could use the extra bhp, I'm sure ) and just learn to see the cars that marked the change from old to new as both being superb examples of the marque.

[Nosevi]

The stars are f life btw. Was that automatic? Seems a little unnecessary. Put 355 power steering into google and you'll come across the thread.

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by Mitch Alsup

Couple of points:

A) If you go back to a manual rack, you should reset the caster to 5 degrees (from 7 degrees).

B) Is there any reason you could not slow down the F355 rack by lowering the pressure of the PS pump?

C) Is there a reason one could not just remove the PS pump and just wire the PS fluid to both sides of the PS rack in the F355?

A) I think the manual steering cars had more like 3 degrees caster, but yeah, definitely have to lower it.

B) not sure how you'd do that without replacing the pump or internally modifying it. I know a restrictor has been tried on other systems with poor reliability results (burning up the pump). The rack itself can be modified for less assist, but again not sure how you go about that.

C) You can do that, but it's still pushing fluid around and has higher effort. The proper way is to open up the rack and remove the power piston and any valving, then add some grease and block off the PS fluid ports.

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Fair enough bob. You know I don't totally agree, companies offer to put power steering in a 348 for far less than that for one thing though not sure how good it'd be to be fair, and some don't want adjustable suspension (we really don't), or a 6th gear (my car hits 80mph in 2nd, why in the blazes would I want a 6th ?!?). I like a more old fashioned drive, you don't, but let's agree to differ shall we? I'm not alone, over on *********** there's an interesting thread from someone who clearly feels the same way.
http://www.***********.com/forums/pr...ught-f355.html
We are allowed to hold these views, even if it doesn't talley with what people who want a more modern car think.

I actually really like the 355, though it may seem like I don't. Yes I do jump to the defence of the 348 a little easily, and that's more often than not (for some strange reason I still can't fathom) against the views held by some 355 owners. That is because so much tripe has been said about the 348 in print and even on this forum that the ballance could do with being readdressed and in my opinion, it slowly is being. Over here in the UK we keep getting article after article saying that, shoch horror, the 348 is actually a really good car and great fun to drive. The shock horror is due to the fact that the authors had been told for years that it wasn't but when they actually drove it they found what a load of rubbish had been written about the car in the past.

There's room in the Ferrari's history for both the 355 AND 348 to be great cars, regardless of what LdM may hold or have said. Let's all just accept the differences between the cars, some are good, some I'd change (could use the extra bhp, I'm sure ) and just learn to see the cars that marked the change from old to new as both being superb examples of the marque.

I think you're defending an argument that's not there. I'm not saying, and haven't said, the 348 isn't a good car, it is, and really good. All I'm saying is that the 355 is a better car. That's a big difference to saying the 348 is not a good car.

You can take solace in the fact that the reason the 355 is so great is that it is based on the already very good 348. If you feel the steering feel is better on the 348, the good news is that it can be easily duplicated on the 355 in a weekend.

I'm not saying the 355 is the best car (or Ferrari) ever made, either. Just from the same era I'd rather have a 512TR. Just not enough to pay for it.

[mlambert890]

Absolutely a subjective thing. Im a non owner, but have driven both cars.

The 348 was definitely not for me. Ill leave it at that as egos are way too fragile on this topic and it always starts a holy war.

The 355 I liked a lot and nothing about the steering jumped out at me as 'bad'.

I am definitely *not* a fan of "old school" driving experiences though (diametrical opposite really), so this is probably why.

For example having been lucky enough to drive a 458 I was ruined forever. I think many "old school" fans, however, might actually not like it (for many of the reasons I *do* like it)

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by bobzdar

I think you're defending an argument that's not there. I'm not saying, and haven't said, the 348 isn't a good car, it is, and really good. All I'm saying is that the 355 is a better car. That's a big difference to saying the 348 is not a good car.

You can take solace in the fact that the reason the 355 is so great is that it is based on the already very good 348. If you feel the steering feel is better on the 348, the good news is that it can be easily duplicated on the 355 in a weekend.

I'm not saying the 355 is the best car (or Ferrari) ever made, either. Just from the same era I'd rather have a 512TR. Just not enough to pay for it.

Ok. Thing is I just don't hold with the black and white, totally objective way you look at it. We don't have to fall out over it, I just don't agree, hope that's coming over in the way I'm writing this. I think driving a sports car is subjective - it is better at being a sports car if it gives you more enjoyment. Not it is better if it goes faster, turns in quicker, revs higher etc. I just don't think the 355 is a 'better' sports car any more than I think a 328 is a 'better' sports car than a 308, they're just different.

Put it this way, I've owned an MGB roadster, old fashioned, wire wheels, chrome bumper etc. A mate of mine had an MGF at the same time (not patronising but hope you know what one is, not sure if they made it to the states). While the MGF was superior to the MGB in every measurable way - quicker, more reliable, better handling, definitely more water tight!, it just left me cold. As a sports car I'd say the MGB is better because it gave me far more enjoyment to drive. My mate agreed, actually sold the MGF pretty quickly.

Now I'm not saying the 355 vs 348 is the same vast difference that you see in the MGF vs MGB, but when 355 guys say my car is "better" than yours (which you are) and point at numbers, they're missing the point IMO and are looking at it in a wholly objective way. The 355 really can be a better sports car to YOU, and YOU may prefer it hugely to the 348, but the 348 can (and is) a better sports car to me because, having driven both, I get more enjoyment out of driving a 348.

A recent article over her in the UK comparing the 355 and 348 and asking which you should buy sort of says something similar. This was its conclusion:


"Depending on your viewpoint, the electronically-assisted F355 is either pioneering or the thin end of the driver-aid wedge. Either way it is objectively the better car-it's friendlier, more approachable nature reaches a more sensible compromise between enjoyment and daily usability. Its price premium is understandable.

But I bet you'd be enthralled by the distinctly analogue 348TB. It is more demanding, with greater intensity. It also requires a longer gentler learning curve, a defter touch and more patience. Arguably, the beguiling 348 makes more sense from a classic perspective than a contemporary one. Be it an occasional treat or potent trackday tool, it is an antidote to disconnected modern motoring.

It won't be to everyone's taste, but for those who prefer something stronger than a mug of cocoa, it really does hit the spot."

That was the final conclusion of the article and while the author didn't come out and say which you should buy, I think I know which he prefered. He's not wrong, it's just his opinion.

May not be the way you see cars, might just be that you think that the numbers are the measure of a sports car, that's up to you entirely and I'm really not criticising just saying I see it differently is all. We are allowed to disagree on this I hope?

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by mlambert890

Absolutely a subjective thing. Im a non owner, but have driven both cars.

The 348 was definitely not for me. Ill leave it at that as egos are way too fragile on this topic and it always starts a holy war.

The 355 I liked a lot and nothing about the steering jumped out at me as 'bad'.

I am definitely *not* a fan of "old school" driving experiences though (diametrical opposite really), so this is probably why.

For example having been lucky enough to drive a 458 I was ruined forever. I think many "old school" fans, however, might actually not like it (for many of the reasons I *do* like it)

No mate, absolutely entitled to your opinion. You like the 355 and didn't like the 348, that's absolutley fine. I like the 348 better. A friend of mine likes his 308, another guy I know loves his 360 Spider. One bloke I bumped into had an F40, 360, and something else posh, but still kept his 348 the longest as he loved it.

I'm not going to get upset if people don't like a 348, especially if you've driven one then formed an opinion. I just think people are entitled to like any car more than another, I agree it is totally and utterly subjective. The only thing I debate, well argue, is when people say a 355 or 360 is better full stop (period ) because it's quicker, or turns better etc. It's subjective. A car can quite easily be better to me but worse to you and nothing wrong with that. More people agree with Bob otherwise a 348 would cost more than a 355. It doesn't. That doesn't make my opinion invalid, just different. Think we can all remain friends though.

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Ok. Thing is I just don't hold with the black and white, totally objective way you look at it. We don't have to fall out over it, I just don't agree, hope that's coming over in the way I'm writing this. I think driving a sports car is subjective - it is better at being a sports car if it gives you more enjoyment. Not it is better if it goes faster, turns in quicker, revs higher etc. I just don't think the 355 is a 'better' sports car any more than I think a 328 is a 'better' sports car than a 308, they're just different.

Put it this way, I've owned an MGB roadster, old fashioned, wire wheels, chrome bumper etc. A mate of mine had an MGF at the same time (not patronising but hope you know what one is, not sure if they made it to the states). While the MGF was superior to the MGB in every measurable way - quicker, more reliable, better handling, definitely more water tight!, it just left me cold. As a sports car I'd say the MGB is better because it gave me far more enjoyment to drive. My mate agreed, actually sold the MGF pretty quickly.

Now I'm not saying the 355 vs 348 is the same vast difference that you see in the MGF vs MGB, but when 355 guys say my car is "better" than yours (which you are) and point at numbers, they're missing the point IMO and are looking at it in a wholly objective way. The 355 really can be a better sports car to YOU, and YOU may prefer it hugely to the 348, but the 348 can (and is) a better sports car to me because, having driven both, I get more enjoyment out of driving a 348.

A recent article over her in the UK comparing the 355 and 348 and asking which you should buy sort of says something similar. This was its conclusion:


"Depending on your viewpoint, the electronically-assisted F355 is either pioneering or the thin end of the driver-aid wedge. Either way it is objectively the better car-it's friendlier, more approachable nature reaches a more sensible compromise between enjoyment and daily usability. Its price premium is understandable.

But I bet you'd be enthralled by the distinctly analogue 348TB. It is more demanding, with greater intensity. It also requires a longer gentler learning curve, a defter touch and more patience. Arguably, the beguiling 348 makes more sense from a classic perspective than a contemporary one. Be it an occasional treat or potent trackday tool, it is an antidote to disconnected modern motoring.

It won't be to everyone's taste, but for those who prefer something stronger than a mug of cocoa, it really does hit the spot."

That was the final conclusion of the article and while the author didn't come out and say which you should buy, I think I know which he prefered. He's not wrong, it's just his opinion.

May not be the way you see cars, might just be that you think that the numbers are the measure of a sports car, that's up to you entirely and I'm really not criticising just saying I see it differently is all. We are allowed to disagree on this I hope?

Objectively, it's better no doubt (as is every subsequent v8 Ferrari, such is progress). Subjectively, unless it's the styling, it can also be made to have the same 'raw' feel of the 348, but with the extra 50hp and 6th gear. That's what I'm saying, you can have the best of both in the 355 but not so much the 348 as it's a lot tougher to add 50hp (forgetting the trans) to the 348 than it is to depower the rack and get an alignment on the 355.

Unless you prefer the styling of the 348, then there is no substitute.

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by bobzdar

Objectively, it's better no doubt (as is every subsequent v8 Ferrari, such is progress). Subjectively, unless it's the styling, it can also be made to have the same 'raw' feel of the 348, but with the extra 50hp and 6th gear. That's what I'm saying, you can have the best of both in the 355 but not so much the 348 as it's a lot tougher to add 50hp (forgetting the trans) to the 348 than it is to depower the rack and get an alignment on the 355.

Unless you prefer the styling of the 348, then there is no substitute.

Mate, we don't muck around with adding 50bhp over here but you won't have seen this 348 Stateside, not sure there's a 355 that'll stay with it. Anyway, lets just say both great cars, we both like both, you like yours best, I like mine best and leave it at that.

[TheRossatron]

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Got a mate who has an Elise, and it is very, very good. Ever driven a 348? Just ask because both of us think it's every bit as good as the Elise. When Evo drove a 308, 348, 355, 360, 430, 458 back to back this is how they described the steering in the 348....

"But now I'm excited because it's instantly obvious this car has some of the best steering, possibly the best, that I have ever sat behind."

"But the reassuring thing is that the 458's astounding pace and wizardry don't diminish the other cars here. There are similarities and differences from first to last but each has its own distinctive personality and you could find multiple perfectly rational and perfectly irrational reasons for being excited by any one of them. For example, my highlight was probably the 348's steering, and that's not something I'd expected at the beginning of the day."

The reason I ask is because so many people don't realise what a great little car the 348 is and while I think the 355 improves on most things on the 348, the steering isn't necessarily one of them.

Interesting, I've never driven a 348 to be honest but this does make me keen to have a go in one if I ever get a chance!

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by TheRossatron

Interesting, I've never driven a 348 to be honest but this does make me keen to have a go in one if I ever get a chance!

I'd encourage everyone to have a go in one if they can. May not be to your taste but it is very direct, you do feel very involved with what's going on and can almost feel the texture of the road, the steering talks to you so much. It may not have the 'nip' of the elise, it's a much bigger car afterall, but the steering comunicates to you just as well.

[PAP 348]

I love the 355, but I love my 348 more.