Source for 355 Valve Guides and other gaskets, nuts, etc?

[jevs]

Looks like I am going to have my heads rebuilt while the engine is out for major service. Ferrari guides alone are $1500+. Are there any other good options? Machine shop is saying they can get or have guides, but I suspect they will be bronze? They act like it's no big deal and nothing to worry about, but I want to make sure it is done right and will last.

What should I get and where should I get them, or should I just turn the heads loose and let them do their thing? I was told they have done many Ferrari heads before.

Also, are there any aftermarket options for head gaskets or other top end gaskets?

Do the head nuts and or bolts need to be replaced or can I reuse? I have always replaced them, but this is a bit different from Honda's and Chevys. I have read on here and half the opinions are from people that don't really know. From my picking and choosing on the reading it seems that the bolts are fine and possibly even the nuts, but the nuts need to be checked or replaced?

Basically I am just checking with you guys before I waste a bunch of money buying Ferrari parts. If there is better stuff aftermarket, I would like to know.

The numbers that are promting me to do this at 34k miles even though the car felt and sounded fine to me are:

1 - 200psi - 4%
2 - 195psi - 9%
3 - 200psi - 3%
4 - 170psi - 20%
5 - 190psi - 7%
6 - 195psi - 6%
7 - 185psi - 13%
8 - 195 psi - 4%

Readings on cold engine with throttle open and using low pressure. Not crazy bad, but not good enough. I will also be checking with Dave Helms and using his plate to pressure test the block while it is down. I am not just going to slap heads on and go, I want to ensure the liners, rings, pistons etc. are all up to par.

[jevs]

So far I am leaning towards Manganese Bronze guides over the Ferrari sintered steel ones. I have made many calls and done a lot of research today. Most people seem to think they are better overall.

I am leaning towards these guys so far based on a couple recommendations including Lesco and Bradan.

http://www.cheprecision.com/html/guides.html

Here is the catalog with good info:
http://cheprecision.com/CHE_Catalog.pdf

I am still looking for more input though. I have talked to several machine shops etc. and so far the majority say they would go with Manganese Bronze over the sintered steel regardless of price. I was also told if not for being a Ferrari part, the Manganese bronze is generally more expensive than the sintered steel. I also heard from one machine shop that they are doing a lot of head work due to sintered steel guides (Chevy Cobalt was mentioned I believe).

Anyway, this is what I have found out so far. Still welcoming any input.

[sws4re]

I did the guides in my car a year ago. I used the bronze manganese ones and got them from GT don't return efing phone calls Car Parts. Won't be buying any thing else from them because they can't return phone calls but they cost me about $750.00.

So far my car is still running very strong but I have only traveled about 3,000 miles since doing the job. I have not checked the leak down numbers after the repair.

Don't know if this helps or not but it's something.

[davehelms]

Any clue how many different formulas of sintered steel exist? Hint... the list is endless, many thousands of options. I looked into making them myself because it is obvious someone in the Ferrari parts food chain is criminal in their pricing.

Bronze guides are purchased for this model for two reasons, Cheap and Profit Margin, period, end of story. Challenge that statement and you best be armed with a good deal of data and facts as I have them, I did a full cost and materials analysis on these. Another Hint, how many 360's do you hear about with valve guide problems.... even at 80-90K miles? Crickets! Failing in a Cobalt? WTH...... REALLY?! You have the 360 with the same basic engine, same basic operating parameters, same stem to guide size ratio, same MATERIAL.... everything to make a good Apples to Apples comparison and a Chevy Cobalt comes into the discussion?

I remember when the trend to use them started and I remember when those starting the trend called for my opinion about using them, they had no clue, nor did I, only educated guesses. I consider this an excellent education on me taking My time to offer an opinion.... a slow learner no doubt, but....... Good thing I do this before work because what I do at work will now change...damn!

I think everyone should be required to list their Vin number so the viewing public can actually follow how some of these "ideas" are really working out... I have to fix them down the road, I know.

[bcwawright]

Dave, as you know, I've been standing on this one for a very long time...lol

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpos...&postcount=226

[jevs]

From my phone calls yesterday, I was told some have been using these for 5 years and have not had any complaints. One shop said they had done about 15-17 sets of heads I believe. These are shops that seem to have good reputations, even on these forums. They also walked me through their process on the heads and it sounds like they are very thorough and meticulous. I have kind of looked around at what is available for other high RPM motors and it seems like the aftermarket world is mostly doing the Manganese Bronze. Of course my research is only one day in at this point, so I do not claim to be an expert and I am not claiming they are better than the pressed powder guides Ferrari is using. It just seems wierd that the Manganese Bronze guides are working in 10K RPM race motors without problems, but won't work in a 355? Also it seams like the aftermarked companies making heads are using the Manganese Bronze as well. If a major part of your business is manufacturing heads from scratch for high performance motors (and probobly making more than Ferrari uses), it seems that you might know something about it.

I have no faith in anything Ferrari for the most part. It seems like there has to be something better in the race world than what they are using stock. I do believe they will use whatever lines their pockets best and gets stuff through warranty periods. It is hard to trust them when they would probobly claim there is no valve guide problem to begin with even though they changed them.

We also have no idea as you have stated what they are really putting in these guides. You can basically powder up whatever you want and smash it together from what I have been reading to make all sorts of "formulas". This allows you to smash something together that would not otherwise bond with each other. It also makes it pourous so it will hold oil to make up for it's lack of natural "slickness". It also means it will be more brittle and not tranfer heat as well. Basically there are trade offs anyway you go. I am just trying to figure out which guides are the best balance overall. I also have no problems saying that I am tired of getting ripped off on Ferrari's prices. If they weren't gouging us so bad on a problem they created, it would be different. If it was something I broke due to abuse or accident or lack of care, then that would be different also.

Anyway, I am not saying one is better than the other. I am just trying to find out what will be best and not just put blind faith in Ferrari, which created this terd to begin with. Of course I knew about these problems before I bought the car and knew there would always be a chance I would be redoing the heads at some point, but it still does not make the sting any less.

It will be nice if some people will respond that actually kept their car for a long time after doing both kinds of guides. The problem is I think most people get scared of the cars after spending all the money to make them right and then they sell them off and move on to something else.

So far I have not heard of either type of guides failing from anyone, so at this point it is all just talk and no unison on what is best. Hopefully more will be learned as this goes.....

[jevs]

Anyone know the cheapest source for the Ferrari guides? I looked around a little bit and it seems Eurospares has the best price.

Converted to dollars from pounds:
Intake 176437 $21.54
Exhaust 176438 $36.97

Of course you would have to ship from Europe, but that is way cheaper than the $45-50 each I am seeing in the US and they would fit in a small package.

I am trying to get some idea of cost comparison between the Manganese Bronze and Ferrari's parts as part of this exercise.

Ferrari also sells oversized ones, is it common to need those?

[bobzdar]

He brings up a good point, how many cars have had multiple valve guide failures? It'd probably be very educating to examine the cars that have. Have you had repeat offenders Dave?

[davehelms]

Originally Posted by bobzdar

Have you had repeat offenders Dave?

Yup, but never with the steel guides.

Everyone accepts a steel guide car wont need guides, the 360's have proven they never need guides.... But these are being re engineered for what reason? I wish I had only done a dozen sets of these heads... difference with me is I have to deal with the whole engine, not just cutting some valves.

How often does a "Race Engine" come apart? 30K miles? All of mine come apart every season at the longest, read that as about 500 miles. Now, how good of a comparison is that?

[pino40]

and they are a a Ferrari dealer



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ferrari-Part...ht_1941wt_1102

[jevs]

Originally Posted by pino40

and they are a a Ferrari dealer



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ferrari-Part...ht_1941wt_1102

Yeah, I found those and put them in my watch list already. Still higher than eurospares by a good amount when you multiply it out for all of them.....


Dave, what kind of guides were used in the repeat offenders? Were these good Manganese Bronze guides, something else, or old Ferrari guides before switching to scintered steel? Were there any wierd circumstances related to those (like people driving on leaky headers etc). We need to know what was used that failed again. It won't be good info unless it is nailed down to what exactly it was in there that failed.

I know your making a point that something failed and it was not the scintered steel which does say something, but what was it and how many repeat offenders? Was it one or two and could that have just been luck of the draw or improperly done work etc., or another inferior guide used, or early in the phase of finding bad guides before many had scintered steel?

[LmnsBlu355]

Originally Posted by davehelms

Yup, but never with the steel guides.

Everyone accepts a steel guide car wont need guides, the 360's have proven they never need guides.... But these are being re engineered for what reason? I wish I had only done a dozen sets of these heads... difference with me is I have to deal with the whole engine, not just cutting some valves.

Sounds like a very unambiguous answer from one of the most respected professionals.

[davehelms]

Originally Posted by LmnsBlu355

Sounds like a very unambiguous answer from one of the most respected professionals.

... as was intended.

My opinion was asked and I answered with a truthful, no dog in the fight, answer. I gave multiple supporting facts to prove out my opinion. I answered the question if I had to deal with any of the replacement guides (others play games with semantics, re was it the original guides failing.... not me), why a component used in a race engine has little bearing on what a steet car requires.....

Sorry, when that isnt enough.... one must get off their backside and do their own, hands dirty, research and answer the questions themselves. Cheap fixes usually last plenty long to pawn the car off on the next owner with it still running fairly well. Ask opinions of dozens and when there is a vested interest in the answer.... it will usually be the same.

[davehelms]

Originally Posted by bcwawright

Dave, as you know, I've been standing on this one for a very long time...lol

Well I thought it was time to resurrect this novel..lol

Phos or mang bronze???....used forever by the pro racers...great product in its time but now the technology has advanced just like the wooden wheel to inflated rubber tires or from a corded phone to wireless.
After countless hours of research and talking to top engineers from around the world pm guides are the bomb. Though originally developed by bsa and going thru much testeing and developement for diesel engines it is now running in your favorite dailey driver and also F1 engines....just tell those mad scientist what application your engine is for and they'll brew you up a special formula to handle your needs. "0" clearance with no gauling or seizing?? No gualing or seizing with no oil?? Best heat dissapation on the planet?? Got some valve train irregularities that would wallow out your bronze like a 60 year old french hooker?? The pm guides have you covered.

So really good bronze guides have been used forever and they will last longer than the rest of your engine components...RIGHT??? So why go to the pm route...Has anyone looked into the ME and TE of a high performance 9K rpm lightweight screamer?? If you think that the best bronze guides are ok and there is no need to go pm then why not put some snow tires on your 355 CH and do some hot laps....tires are tires right....they are both made out of rubber.

When the rest of your engine goes south atleast the guides won't need replacing..that ought to save you some money on the rebuild..lol

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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You old goof..... I just opened that link this AM.

Isn't that the thread where we were debating the structural rigidity advantages of an Oak wheel V. one made of Yellow Pine with the resulting weight saving advantages.... even got John drug into this mess as I remember? Seems I remember it becoming painfully obvious that you had spent far too much time around those Panzer Weedwackers, as the discussion progressed.

INFLATED rubber tires.... REALLY? WTH are you talkin bout... you sampling your home brew product again?! You put a lip lock on those to blow them up and you could likely have the Hindenberg x 4.... you got your 'bomb' right there!

[full_garage]

Two points..

1) Eurospares is a great resource- but for god's sakes CALL Ricambi on the phone to buy your parts. Get off the damned computer and actually make a relationship with the guys who keep these cars alive. Daniel is ridiculously helpful, he'll always be within a few bucks of anyone's price AFTER ALL IS SAID AND DONE. Eurospares ships UPS, so you will pay some freight but YOU WILL get a UPS bill in the mail for US Customs and Duty. You have been warned.

2) Dave Helms. Obviously your expertise is beyond reproach. Can I just ask one favor? There's so much shorthand and jokey verbiage in your recent posts that I honestly have a hard time parsing them. I'd love one single paragraph that covers your learned advice, then we can move on with the jokes. Your knowledge base is a great service to this community, but a lot of us don't spend as much time as the pros here do dealing with all things Ferrari, so jumping into the middle of some of these posts can be a little difficult for some of us.

Thanks

[davehelms]

Originally Posted by full_garage

Obviously your expertise is beyond reproach.

Oh hell no it isn't, it is merely one opinion, nothing more. I make as many mistakes as anyone else but I try to minimize the number of times they are repeated. I try my best to dispell BS rumors that folks seem to blindly follow these days. When the corrections I give freely dont match someones agenda...... I no longer give a damn, I give them anyway. Maybe it will help one owner somewhere and I wont be guilty of turning a blind eye to the problem. Will I fix it for free? Hell no, I do this for a living. Will I make an attempt to stop someone from making a mistake..... I tried, failed and learned in this case.

"jokey verbiage"

1) I am not smart enough to know exactly what this is, I suspect it isn't complimentary but that is OK.... I can fix that problem quite easily.

2) I fail to see how the facts I laid out can be the least bit confusing. Each myth presented was disposed of with facts and real world WORKING examples, not guesses, failed logic and assumptions. This is confusing How?

[full_garage]

Originally Posted by davehelms

"jokey verbiage"

1) I am not smart enough to know exactly what this is, I suspect it isn't complimentary but that is OK.... I can fix that problem quite easily.

2) I fail to see how the facts I laid out can be the least bit confusing. Each myth presented was disposed of with facts and real world WORKING examples, not guesses, failed logic and assumptions. This is confusing How?

Dave

I don't mean to offend... I appreciate that you have some very hard won opinions that not everyone in the Ferrari world agree with. I'm just saying that for me personally I sometimes have a hard time exactly following your specific advice. For instance on this thread- you are recommending WHICH valve guides exactly. Steel- I get it, but you reference different kinds of steel and certainly there are different opinions on this- so if you would be kind enough to share exactly what you use and why, might help a few of us make a decision in the future.

I think what tends to happen here on the interweb is guys work on these cars all day, every day and devote their working lives to the maintenance of these cars get a little bit annoyed when us lawyers and salesmen and engineers who wrench for 5 minutes a week come on here and argue. You should be annoyed but the tendency is to talk down to the crowd- Not you Dave, but we all know who was the most famous example of this on Fchat.

You've been the most open and truthful of all the pro techs here- and shared more information than anyone- and for that all of us are thankful for sure. I'm just trying to keep up!

[bcwawright]

Originally Posted by davehelms

You old goof..... I just opened that link this AM.

Isn't that the thread where we were debating the structural rigidity advantages of an Oak wheel V. one made of Yellow Pine with the resulting weight saving advantages.... even got John drug into this mess as I remember? Seems I remember it becoming painfully obvious that you had spent far too much time around those Panzer Weedwackers, as the discussion progressed.

INFLATED rubber tires.... REALLY? WTH are you talkin bout... you sampling your home brew product again?! You put a lip lock on those to blow them up and you could likely have the Hindenberg x 4.... you got your 'bomb' right there!

This is what I was trying to tell you on the phone as I was standing in the Walmart parking lot while your breakfast burrito was being nuked for the third time.........yes, poor John got caught up in the moment and added some fuel to the fire with his Oak comment.

You never blow up anything after just finishing some of the home brew....lol

[fatbillybob]

I'm not informed on all this stuff. Why does the 360 not blow up while the 355 does? I missed that part of the story. The 360 in general seems to be the 3rd most bullitproof Ferrari behind the 328 and 550.

[plugzit]

Originally Posted by fatbillybob

I'm not informed on all this stuff. Why does the 360 not blow up while the 355 does? I missed that part of the story. The 360 in general seems to be the 3rd most bullitproof Ferrari behind the 328 and 550.

Everybody down! Grenade in the fire!!!