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#41
05-08-2012, 10:27 AM
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The reason I said it MAY still be a viable option is the fact that there is no real evidence to say either way until we wait and see as you have said. The Manganese Bronze guides are being used and probobly for at least 5 years from my little research. Like it or not reputable shops are using them. I do not want to persuade or dissuade people from using them just because I chose to use the sintered steel guides. I am no metalurgical expert and will not pretend to be. However, I do deal in data and spent many years as a manufacturing engineer. What I have amassed on this topic is inconclusive and I could not in good faith give a recomendation to anyone. I did not receive much negative feedback on the use of sintered steel guides in this application in my little research, but I did receive a lot of grief here about the MB guides for no reason that was really made evident to me. When I do work on my cars I always consider things that affect resale later. Naturally and unfortunatly, the lemmings that believe everything they read decide fate on these matters, therefore using the Ferrari guides pretty much makes me immune and did persuade my decision slightly. I also do not want to make people that have used them feel like their car is any less valuable. No concrete proof has been presented to me that their car will last any less longer than mine will with the Ferrari guides. I am using the Ferrari Guides. I have no need to argue for or against other methods at this point, but I have no data or personal experience to say Manganese Bronze or the Ferrari guides are better. I do know, I am using what you have suggested and you should feel as our discussion on the phone was not wasted as I did listen to you intently and took your opinion seriously (even though I got chastized for continuing to investigate further). I even at the time was hoping that I may borrow your pressure plate to test my block as was stated in my first post in this thread. I was not expecting my simple thread to go wacky....I just wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing for me and anyone that buys my car in the future. All is good and I am moving forward to insuring my liners and rings are good. That is the next matter to tackle..... 
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#42
05-08-2012, 10:35 AM
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#43
05-09-2012, 07:04 AM
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When the average yearly mileage amounts to 2500-3000 miles... "They are working fine for me" has very little bearing on long term longevity after this short period of time. Had I not spent so much time with engineers on this very issue, I might have been compelled to shrug it off... but that isnt the case. You made the right move and it will pay back at resale time, I am quite sure of that.
__________________
Quality is never an accident!
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#44
05-11-2012, 09:16 PM
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I spoke with a Ferrari tech today who gave a reason to guides failing. A great point was made about 360 guides where redesigned for a reason and there are a ton of high mile 360s with steel guides and no issue.
The question I think is still WHY do the softer guides fail. Now this is just being put out there for what it is worth. One persons opinion ,Basically the short awnser was that, with the aggressive cams the 355s have, a more aggressive sideways force is put on the valve causing the guides to oval over time. Thus the other cars have more of a vertical action pushing the valve down, not sideways, causing less wear on say a cobalt motor. This is just an opinion that I want to put out there. Maybe Dave can correct me on this if it is incorrect.
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#45
05-12-2012, 07:40 AM
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There is no side force, they are pushed straight down by the hydraulic tappet running in a very low clearance bore.... cant get any straighter than that.
I could give my list of reasons for concern but they, at this point, amount to simply educated guesses. One day I may stumble upon proof that points to the answers but there is sound reason to waste my time looking for that proof. When there is already a time proven replacement with a near foolproof track record, why waste time trying to prove a negative. Finding a way to reproduce a proven design in a more affordable way... that is an effort worth researching and the reason BW and myself learned about the guides. Rest assured, someone is making a boat load of money on these steel guides. With so many other problems needing attention, I couldn't justify making a competing product where payback would be WAY out there, and it would stop progress on issues where there is no solution. Case in point, yesterday the gauntlet holding back progress on the in-tank fuel system rubber parts... it came crumbling down. On those parts there is no satisfactory replacement. That problem is considered a Safety issue because the fuel neck and vent line sleeves are rotting as well, causing fuel to slosh onto the headers. When budgets are a serious consideration, I will always focus on a safety concern over trying to make a cheaper competing product. The guide issue is resolved and owners have a choice, also a very good thing. Make the choices, but do it with track record facts in hand, not because its popular.
__________________
Quality is never an accident!
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#46
05-12-2012, 10:04 AM
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Thanks for verifying that Dave. The more I thought about it, it did seem to be a stretch because of the fact it has to push down the lifter that is in a tight bore.
Sucks to hear about the fuel tank rubber. As I'm sure that's probably next on my list of "features" that I will have to deal with. Apprciate your input. Thanks
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#47
06-20-2012, 09:43 AM
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I just thought I would give you guys an update. I finally got the heads into the machine shop. He said all the valve guides were shot (My car has 33k miles). They were the original "soft" guides. They had no problems installing the new Ferrari scintered steel guides. No valves were damaged or in need of replacement. Other than the guides it was just a normal head rebuild/cleanup with no out of the ordinary work or parts needed.
I just need to get the new valve stems seals over to them and they will be done by the end of the week. It is amazing how smooth my engine ran and sounded with 40 shot valve guides. One thing I do wonder is if I am going to notice much difference in performance after this (along with full aftermarket exhaust system - fabspeed headers, top speed "cat" pipes, fabspeed secondary "cat" pipe, tubi muffler). It has been long enough now that I am actually getting excited about driving the car again.
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#48
06-20-2012, 10:24 AM
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Who did the heads for you?
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#49
06-20-2012, 11:00 AM
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Phase II Machine shop in St. Louis is doing them for me. No B.S. Ferrari tax. I am not sure what the final bill will be yet. It is a little time consuming because of 40 valve guides. I will let you know and post some pictures. They were recommeded to my by Euro Tricks (ET Tuning) http://www.ettuning.com/
ET Tuning is actually doing the work on my car for me at my direction (otherwise I would have not even had time to start this yet). They give me an hourly rate that is about half of what other people charge and they are great to deal with. They basically let me call the shots and we discuss and look at every step of the project together and I purchase all the parts. I don't trust anyone to work on my cars and usually do all my own work, but I just don't have time for it right now. This is about the only shop I trust. They actually sponsored the Accel DFI training I went through and we Dyno tuned my last car I built on their Dyno. So far my experience with them has been very good and fair. The other bonus is that they are in the same town as me which is very lucky because I am not in a big city.
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#50
06-20-2012, 12:04 PM
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As I read through this, I have to inquire regarding something that is very possibly extremely obvious:
Who makes the OEM sintered steel valve guides for Ferrari? And how did they (did they work with the factory or what?) decide and come up with the magic formula of sintered steel that works so well? We've all seen Ferrari come up with some crapola parts in an OEM box, a perfect example of this are the 355 headers as there is still no OEM replacement or recommendation from Ferrari but everyone knows simply to not use them. And OEM valves they are pushing are no better than something Manley or Ferrea will crack out for me. What I'm getting at is, what's the difference if a well-respected valve and guide manufacturer churns out a large batch of sintered steel valve guides? Because I know Ferrari sure didn't spend thousands of hours researching the best formula of sintered steel. Here's how it probably went down: Ferrari receives calls from various dealers advising the guides are failing. Ferrari has a look at a couple and decides they are a bit too soft. Ferrari call their valve guide guys in whatever part of the world they're in and place the ball in their court. The valve guide guys grab whatever steel product they have had some racing success in and knock out a bunch of guides for Ferrari, Ferrari shove them in an OEM box, end of story problem solved, great. So, now we have 'X' number of racing valve and guide manufacturers in the US who have the ability to crack out a number of guides from sintered steel per the customers request and can make them to the same tolerances or possibly better. What's the difference? is there a magic formula? I highly doubt it. I'm sorry but no one is going to tell me there is some magical Ferrari-only formula of sintered steel that only Ferrari knows about that is used in racing engines. Come on. This is simple stuff here. I agree using sintered steel is probably best, but arguing the labeling on the box angers me to no end. Any good guide manufacturer will fab up a bunch of hard steel guides if the customer requests it, the issue is if anyone wants to jump in and pay the piper to have a large batch made. Not worth the cost IMO, just buy OEM steel. Sorry for the diatribe, it's just a bothersome issue that the factory knows best at times. This is the same factory that spoke of the all aluminum 360 body as if it were some sort of new and exotic technology even though they had an all aluminum 60s racing car sitting 20 yards away......and didn't know it until a person in the room pointed it out that this isn't anything new Tony, not to mention the zillion other all aluminum cars before it. Sheesh.
__________________
"I'm with Roscoe"
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#51
06-20-2012, 12:27 PM
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#52
06-20-2012, 12:57 PM
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__________________
"I'm with Roscoe"
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#53
06-20-2012, 03:50 PM
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I know the special handshake if that helps LOL
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#54
06-20-2012, 05:50 PM
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Dropped the valve stem seals off and got a couple pics with my camera phone. The heads and valves are done. All the valve guides are installed. It's ready to go together. Looks good so far.
*not all those valves are mine obviously...
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355 spider
