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#221
09-03-2007, 07:22 AM
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I have had the same debate with a highly respected friend from FNA back when the cars were new. The reason for the rambling post was I am still arguing the question with myself.
Guides and ancillary items aside, I think vibration will be found to be the next source of wear and if it can be controlled the engines will live a long life. I believe this will show itself on the main bearings. If that is the case we have little to worry about as a freshen up will be a quick job when the engine is out. If the flywheels dont leak, all is good and needs no service. My point in the last post was that "the package" is all based on an aluminum block that is incredibly fluid in nature. Balance, in every respect, is essential to a long life. On engines I have built with high 30K mileage there are some liner / piston combinations that show virtually zero wear. The rods have shown a bit of fretting where the bearing shell has caused galvanic corrosion but this is easy to deal with. The crank is virtually bomb proof.... Exceptional package. Then there are the cylinders were the liner fails, shows heavy wear and rings that are 1/2 (or less) their original width. Hence the quest. The basis for my question is whenever one is about to change a design in any way, be it headers, guides, heat shields, anything, it would be irresponsible not to set an expected life span documented with data and research. This thought came to me due to discussions regarding header wrapping. There are going to be some angry folks in the near future! There are very few that get the injector cleaning done these days at my shop. The major services are expensive enough by themselves. It is usually the low mileage cars where problems are found. Early on when chasing the theory of ring wash out causing the cylinder wear I came up with a procedure of dropping a cylinder and monitoring the resulting HC and CO levels of a bank. Not a fool proof system but with enough baseline data it proved to be a reliable and quick check without incurring big expenses on a guess. It proved good enough to show me I was heading in the wrong direction but did point out numerous problem cars. This led to cleaning the intakes and checking how closely the intake bleeds were set at the factory. These were all set AFTER the cam timing was done (when new) and were wrong unless they happened to get the cam timing correct the first time. This is the point where I found the throttle break away solution on the 355's to be just a proper set up. And on and on.. The beaultiful part of all this is Ferrari gave us a package that is adjustable in every respect. Fix the known problems, adjust everything properly to suit the new conditions / components and drive the hell out of it. No magic here. The point of my rambling is to show how each and every component is inter related. Each effect the next in line and to design one without looking at each and every one of them is wrong. I look at the new header design to last the life of the car. It will get exhaust gases to the tail pipe just fine but I am looking for it to do more than that. I want it to help the exhaust valve run cooler, lessen the reversion, draw out the spent exhaust so the engine doesn't have to pump it out hence assisting (might as well take advantage of the big overlap in the cams) the incoming flow of air, all while dropping the compartment temps considerably over the stock design. Bruce and Kevin have done some wonderful work and they are very close. No big deal, just weld some tubes together. You can predict it now, "I just installed XY headers and now I have CEL's" and if that isnt enough along come the Fed's with their thoughts and red tape. A big problem to contend with and I have no answers to this. At this point I am convinced I have the correct answers to most that plagues the 355 engine. Testing will either prove me right or wrong again. Dave
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Quality is never an accident! 
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#222
09-03-2007, 10:45 AM
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<<There are those that complain at great length about the rattle and banging of the dual mass flywheels, some even go to the extent of removing them and replace with a solid unit and some will throw any old grease in them when rebuilding the unit.
When balancing an engine expected to turn in excess of 8K RPM, Ferrari saw the consumer acceptable variance of 2 grams to be adequate. I require the number to be under 1 gram variance. That said, how does one balance an engine with a constantly changing weight caused by oil being thrown directly at the pistons? With a dual mass flywheel capable of making large changes quickly. >> I was one of the first to post on FChat the use of aftermarket grease and solid flywheels . There seems to be nothing special about kluber as long as the specs of the alternative greases used are matched up reasonably well or at least think about the environment of the grease use and choose accordingly. In a pinch when no kluber was available I have used off brand grease I can tell you different greases work just fine. I suspect the improperly greased cars you have had to do "housekeeping" on are when the grease used is nowhere near the kluber spec. and things like out of wack heat range can cause grease pooling and thus increased imbalance. To me this is a mobil 1 vs. redline argument? The easiest way to get to 1 gram balance or better and keep it balanced is to go with a solid flywheel. This works too as my single data point race miles attest. Sure the Ferrari is not a Porsche but Porsche and others use the dual mass flywheels too for all the dampning reasons but these too are routinely among the first items for aftermarket guys to remove and go solid. There are many Porsches around and they are not living shorter lives due to this modification while my Ferrari is but one datapoint. I do not understand how at say a modest 6000 rpm a dual mass flywheel would react to a transient harmonic imbalance if created by an oil stream. The transient in oil stream is not likely to overcome the centripital force acting on the grease pack and componants. Higher RPM make even more centripital force and the flywheel would react slower to any vibrations. I see dual mass action primarily beneficial at low rpm like start-up and shut-down. The higher the RPM the more dual mass acts like a solid single mass. Maybe you can tell me what I am missing here. As to the oil spray creating imbalance, 99% of engines are wet sump splash lubricated with unpredictable amounts (weights) of oil hitting critical parts. One of the virtues of Dry sump oil mist lubrication is that it controls this much better. Can you explain the problem you are seeing with the 355 lubrication system? Are you looking at this problem purely from and extreme race engine perspective or from the streetcar perspective as Ferrari delivered the 355? We readers need a frame of referrence for what you guys are trying to achieve. You can build an engine for 1 race, 50k miles, 100k miles etc... While thinking of the 355 as a race car with a radio is lofty praise it is still a 3000+lb lump of streetcar with 50 lb seats, 100lb A/C and street tires. So in the 1995 era of 993 Porsches, first Gen ZO6 vettes Vern's idea of 100k miles is a very reasonable and expected target since each of these other cars will go well beyond 100k. If you want only 50k miles I don't understand the purpose of this entire thread because the kludges that already exist with steel guides and aftermarket headers in their current form will get you 50k.
__________________
" What you have done to your car is a Band Aid and it was poorly applied. Please share with us your VIN so your car can be avoided when it comes on the market."--Rifledriver
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#223
09-05-2007, 09:17 AM
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Fbb,
As you know, we both agree in the solid flywheel for race applications. Hell, take that further and for race applications a solid aluminum unit with a 5.5" dual disc so there is NO weight to deal with. I happen to think the dual mass Ferrari unit is perfect for street use and prolongs the engine life in this application. I can agree to disagree, I have no fight left in me these days. As with Vern, I now sit back, shake my head and go on to the next topic with no response. I may be a slow learner but I saw what happened to Brian, life is too short to have half the folks angry with what you say. My primary concern was with the street cars where Bruce is geared to the race version. I think the two different focuses working together has been a wonderful advancement in knowledge. I am excited about the enhancement of performance on the street cars while retaining all of the emissions components. I think this is the future we have to look at and gear up for now. I for one am willing to leave a few HP on the table in the end if we can help retain and possibly enhance the emissions efficiency of these cars while still building on the overall output and bettering longevity. "If you want only 50k miles I don't understand the purpose of this entire thread because the kludges that already exist with steel guides and aftermarket headers in their current form will get you 50k." Yup, you may well be right, seems I might have wasted a great deal of time on this. I suspected most owners wanted the cars running properly and was looking for the point where performance and reliability dropped off substantially. As I stated many times earlier, I have been wrong far more that right on my initial thoughts. I stand corrected. Regards, Dave
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Quality is never an accident!
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#224
09-07-2007, 02:53 PM
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“Fbb,
As you know, we both agree in the solid flywheel for race applications. Hell, take that further and for race applications a solid aluminum unit with a 5.5" dual disc so there is NO weight to deal with. I happen to think the dual mass Ferrari unit is perfect for street use and prolongs the engine life in this application.” O.K we agree on a lot. “ I can agree to disagree, I have no fight left in me these days. As with Vern, I now sit back, shake my head and go on to the next topic with no response. I may be a slow learner but I saw what happened to Brian, life is too short to have half the folks angry with what you say.” I’m not sure what you mean. I certainly am not looking for a fight. I’ve got a simple mind thought and about what the properties of the kluber may be, then choose accordingly…it worked. Later, I got tired of messy grease and modified the OEM flywheel pack to be solid and 7lbs lighter…it worked. Sorry if I’m bugging you but “no response” will mean I will likely repeat this blasphomy again until taught otherwise. ”My primary concern was with the street cars where Bruce is geared to the race version. I think the two different focuses working together has been a wonderful advancement in knowledge. I am excited about the enhancement of performance on the street cars while retaining all of the emissions components. I think this is the future we have to look at and gear up for now. I for one am willing to leave a few HP on the table in the end if we can help retain and possibly enhance the emissions efficiency of these cars while still building on the overall output and bettering longevity.” This is a meaningful statement and really can lay the groundwork for a list of compromises that can guide development. It will be a significant effort.
__________________
" What you have done to your car is a Band Aid and it was poorly applied. Please share with us your VIN so your car can be avoided when it comes on the market."--Rifledriver
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#225
09-07-2007, 06:54 PM
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"It will be a significant effort."
I passed the "significant" point a couple of hundred hours ago. The rest is all down hill. Dave
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Quality is never an accident!
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#226
01-24-2009, 10:38 AM
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Well I thought it was time to resurrect this novel..lol
Phos or mang bronze???....used forever by the pro racers...great product in its time but now the technology has advanced just like the wooden wheel to inflated rubber tires or from a corded phone to wireless. After countless hours of research and talking to top engineers from around the world pm guides are the bomb. Though originally developed by bsa and going thru much testeing and developement for diesel engines it is now running in your favorite dailey driver and also F1 engines....just tell those mad scientist what application your engine is for and they'll brew you up a special formula to handle your needs. "0" clearance with no gauling or seizing?? No gualing or seizing with no oil?? Best heat dissapation on the planet?? Got some valve train irregularities that would wallow out your bronze like a 60 year old french hooker?? The pm guides have you covered. So really good bronze guides have been used forever and they will last longer than the rest of your engine components...RIGHT??? So why go to the pm route...Has anyone looked into the ME and TE of a high performance 9K rpm lightweight screamer?? If you think that the best bronze guides are ok and there is no need to go pm then why not put some snow tires on your 355 CH and do some hot laps....tires are tires right....they are both made out of rubber. When the rest of your engine goes south atleast the guides won't need replacing..that ought to save you some money on the rebuild..lol Last edited by bcwawright; 01-24-2009 at 10:41 AM.
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#227
01-27-2009, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
__________________
Quality is never an accident! Last edited by davehelms; 01-27-2009 at 09:01 AM.
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#228
01-28-2009, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
If you can instruct a class on crew cab drifting I might even sign up....
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#229
01-28-2009, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
 1. Beer between legs. 2. Dead animal in bed or strapped to hood. 3. Loaded gunrack in back. 4. Rebel flag sunshade. 5. Gumbo mudders. 6. Full cooler behind front seat. 7. 3 Drunken buddies. 8. Bass boat w/255hp Merc on trailer in the back. Last edited by plugzit; 01-28-2009 at 10:19 AM.
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#230
01-28-2009, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
1. Heather and Ashley need to have been drinking, still drinking, and are on the bench seat with you, 2. Heather and Ashley are fighting about who is going home with whom, and 3. You discover while driving between two drunk fighting gals that the "clump of mud" under the bench seat was, and is, a live and active yellowjackets nest...
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[The 348 Primer] . [ Drifting ] . [HIR Lights] Simplify the problem, then think outside the box. -----------------------> DOW 20,000 by 2020
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#231
01-28-2009, 11:35 AM
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#232
01-28-2009, 02:03 PM
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Damn, missed them all! WAIT... I did have a trailer hitch tounge and ball in the bed after preaching to everyone how they had to clean under their seats, golve box......before entering the track. Destroyed the box interior and even pushed that out where it dented the fenders outward.... Does that count??? Sure didnt make any friends with the track management with those studs on that day. Came close to taking the top housing off the AC unit on a GMC motorhome going under the bridge at BIR doing the same with a full load of drivers on board....not a seat belt in the entire darn RV...had a stack of bodies in the isle when I stopped just in time to let the air shocks down. Full roll caged Subaru 360 van..... First 8 min+ lap at BIR! I have to hit paydirt here somewhere!
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Quality is never an accident!
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#233
01-28-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
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#234
01-28-2009, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Quality is never an accident!
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#235
04-01-2009, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
This thread is fascinating though. I can't wait to ask the seller of my first Ferrari if he replaced the valve guides. Still reading....
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#236
04-02-2009, 10:27 AM
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Even though I haven't posted to this thread for some time Dave Helms and I have figured out AAALLLLLL of the 355 problems and it boils down to "it was built by Italians"....lol
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#237
04-02-2009, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
I just finished reading "One Year With a Ferrari" and am now starting to reconsider my quest to own a 355. Lot's of time though and tons more research to do. I am still only on page 4 of this thread. Great stuff. Wish I knew more about the inner workings of car engines.
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#238
04-03-2009, 10:16 AM
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So you guys never really came to any conclusions to help would be 355 owners?
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#239
04-03-2009, 11:09 AM
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Biggest problem is obtaining aftermarket/3rd party parts to replace poor quality Ferrari vendor items. Since R&D to produce superior quality parts is expensive very few have done this because most of the older cars are owned by people who do not value the upgrades enough to pay for them.
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#240
04-08-2009, 07:11 AM
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The problems today are the market place is too small to justify the investment required to perfect replacement parts. With a minimum effort good parts can be made but not great parts. There is a wide gap between 'Good' and 'Great' that only comes about from designing, prototyping, testing, modifying and redesigning and none of that comes for free. Once one perfects the perfect mouse trap there is a VERY small market in which to offer it, hence the reason few 'rational' folks enter into this arena..... Bruce has been too busy converting his Still to distill Peanut Mash in an attempt to become the new world's fuel czar.... Castrol 'R' has now met its match but it smells like burning Skippy! Save it for the fuel tank Bruce, not consumption!
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Quality is never an accident!
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