355 dyno with raised rev limiter? | FerrariChat

355 dyno with raised rev limiter?

Discussion in '348/355' started by INTMD8, Dec 8, 2009.

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  1. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    #1 INTMD8, Dec 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Just wondering if anyone has a dyno sheet of a 355 with a raised rev limiter? The dyno sheet Gothspeed posted a while back shows the engine peaking around 8500rpm.

    I would like to see a dyno of one pulled to 9000+ if one is out there as I would like to know where the power starts to fall off.

    Seems like the car would be quite a bit faster if it was shifted a few hundred rpm past peak hp rather than right on top of it.
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  2. sambomydog

    sambomydog Guest

    May 23, 2009
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    My guess is that this thread may be full of assumptions as opposed to hard facts. Its it takes of at all.
    There's one car that i have heard of with a rev limiter set at 10,000rpm, and thats the ex Shuey (F1 fame) car. Although allegedly it also had factory hot cams.
    But i agree it would be interesting to see the dyno sheets.
     
  3. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The proper cams are a must to really make it work at those rpm's, especially if you wanna spin it to 10 grand. Then there is the question of the valve train? How well would the stock valve train hold up at those rpm's.

    As a wise old man once said, "RPM stands for, Ruins Peoples Motors".
     
  4. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Thats why I would like to see a graph. If the stock cams peak at 8500 an have very little drop-off at 9000 while showing no signs of valvetrain instability than they are up to the task IMO.
     
  5. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    I have a dyno that looks remarkably like gothspeeds' (which is why I am remakring on it....) In addition I had the dyno operator run the car right up to the fuel cut off of the ECU.

    The mechanical item that limits the RPMs of the F355 engine are the hydraulic lifters, the ECU cutrs in before you get there). All of the other components can be used to significantly higher RPM ranges*. However, If you do want to look for another 1000 RPMs, you need to shed the hydraulic lifters and get some shim under bucket arrangement. The hydraulic lifters are already costing power at the standard redline.

    (*) given that you are aware of how wear increases cubically with RPMs.
     
  6. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

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    I would be very happy with a 9100 RPM ECU cutoff ........... :eek:
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    355 was designed for a 10k redline and is the reason they decided to go with titanium rods. During durability testing they found timing belt life unacceptably short at 10k rpm so the redline was lowered in the ecu. No other design or component changes were made. Later it was found out the early rods had a stress riser in the area of the rod bolts leading to some failures. The rods had a very minor redesign in late 95 or early 96.
     
  8. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

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    But I bet they looked really good! :rolleyes:
     
  9. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Interesting. The gates racing timing belts could have been helpful but this was there response when I inquired about them-


    "James,
    Gates does not provide timing belts for the Ferrari F355 model. The popularity is low from Gates viewpoint and not cost effective to build these timing belts.
    Regards, APA Team"
     
  10. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    14,000 355's worldwide....how many Corollas? Half a million? ;)
     
  11. sambomydog

    sambomydog Guest

    May 23, 2009
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    Did not know that, thanks for posting:)
     
  12. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Not sure but I think a product called "racing timing belts" isn't likely targeted towards Corollas. ;)

    I would think that entire product line would be relatively low volume.
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Wouldn't matter. Timing belts on race motors are not designed or intended to go 30,000 miles.
     
  14. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Maybe not but the great number of these cars reach the time limit on the belt before mileage in which case I would think a stronger belt could be cheap insurance on a higher rpm application.
     
  15. sambomydog

    sambomydog Guest

    May 23, 2009
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    I have just noticed that there are two conflicting theories/facts here.
    Rifledriver said that no other design or component changes were made, for the engine to rev to 10,000rpm.
    Mitch Alsup said that the mechanical item that limits the F355s RPM are the hydraulic lifters.
    Which is true of the two statements?
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I got my information from Ferrari Spa.

    You decide.
     
  17. sambomydog

    sambomydog Guest

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    Mmm now thats a tricky one because just like politicians, i believe very little that come out of Ferrari Spa ;) rarther in the same way you beleve very little that comes out of FNA;)
     
  18. redryder

    redryder Karting

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    Well, if you had gone to the factory years ago you would have actually seen the 355 engines being tested at 10K rpm's.

    Rifledriver is dead on with what he said.
     
  19. sambomydog

    sambomydog Guest

    May 23, 2009
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    Oh like you did??
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    It is like any other company, there are good people and bad ones. I spent enough time with them to know who was who and who to trust.
     
  21. sambomydog

    sambomydog Guest

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    Thanks for answering mate. So in your opinion the Hydraulic tappets can be used up to the 10.000rpm ceiling?
    I know that some engines rpm can be governed by the lifters, would you say the 355 lifters start to pump up after 10.000 rpm? I have no such plans to do such a thing, i am just interested to know every thing i can about the development of the unit.
     
  22. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    The redline on the 458 is 9000 rpm. Hydraulic lifters. Certainly some conservatism in that number. Chains instead of belts, so backs up what Brian said. Belts are an issue for really high revs. Note Honda's screaming S2000 engine uses chains, as well.

    Mitch is like me, an old hot rodder, where hydraulic valve lifters on US V8s could pump up and float the valves at really high rpm in the olden days. Bad things then happened with high compression pistions.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  23. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Advising Moderator
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    Taz,

    I'm curious... if you wanted to rev to 10,000rpm regularly and reliably, could engines for the 355 (and perhaps 348) be converted to use a chain-driven timing system?

    I know rifledriver was saying the engines were tested to that, but if a chain-driven timing system is possible then presumably that would give you additional reserve for safety and reliability.

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  24. sambomydog

    sambomydog Guest

    May 23, 2009
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    As am i:) Going back to the 70s.
    Although i am a little confused because. The 458 engine design is over 15 years newer than the 355s, so i cant see any correlation between the two. So i cant see how this backs up anything Brian has said.
     
  25. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #25 tazandjan, Dec 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sambo- 355s have hydraulic valve lifters, so do 458s. Rev limit on the 355 is due to belts, not the valve lifters, which have done 10,000 rpm in testing, and use 9000 rpm as a redline in the 458. And that is only the 458's redline, not sure where the rev limiter is set.

    US V8 valve lifters were huge compared to the ones on a four or five valve Ferrari. Lots more inertia and hydraulic fluid/engine oil. Apples and oranges.

    Newer hydraulic valve lifters and roller bearing rockers have raised the rev limits on US pushrod V8 hydraulic lifter engines, but not to the limits a lightweight, multi-valve, DOHC valvetrain can reach.

    Like Brian said.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
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